Evolution and Faith: My Story, Part 2

In Part 1, I described the trajectory of my thinking over the past four decades as an evangelical Christian on the scientific aspects of creation. Here I describe the personal and theological aspects of this journey. 

Hard Questions and Cold Shoulders

As I started to get closure on the scientific issues regarding the formation of the earth and its biosphere, this raised some disturbing questions.  If all Scripture is inspired by God, and God cannot lie or make a mistake, then it would seem that all Scripture must be inerrant. But then, how could the Genesis creation story, which is affirmed in the New Testament, be factually inaccurate? Was this a slippery slope, leading to the denial of the historicity of the Resurrection?

Besides my own inner turmoil, I had to contend with reactions of my family and friends. There were few people with whom I could usefully explore these issues. My non-Christian friends could not relate to my concerns over the Bible. Nearly all my Christian friends were so committed to biblical inerrancy that I could not readily talk with them about it. The few times I brought it up, the conversation got so chilly so fast that, for the sake of ongoing relationship, I had to quickly drop the subject. With some family members, as well, their response to my concerns was a reflexive affirmation of scriptural inerrancy which did not invite further dialogue. My undergraduate college roommate (the one I mentioned in Part 1, whom I had persuaded of young earth creationism), who has been a very dear friend for decades, now regards me as a sort of apostate. My wife and I get along quite well in general, but when the topic of Genesis came up, a defensive anger would rise up in her. (Her story is told here).

Perhaps my strongest supporter at that time was my mother. She was in her eighties, but still sharp. She studied geology in college in the 1940’s, long before she came to an evangelical faith, so she was under no illusion about the age of the earth. I have since found a friend at my church who reads and thinks broadly, with whom I can explore topics like evolution.

My wife eventually became reconciled to the fact that the Genesis depiction of creation is not scientifically accurate, after I was able to demonstrate to her satisfaction that this did not impugn the overall authority of the Bible.  The key points that helped her are discussed below.  I have shared with her my resolution of the matter, which is that we can still visualize and learn from the Genesis story, treating it as a parable rather than a literal chronicle.

My wife has a heart for all Bible-believing parents who struggle as she did with raising and teaching Bible to children in a way that produces life giving faith. She was impressed by an article in Christianity Today which addresses the key issues of Who created men and women in the image of God rather than getting blindsided by issues of how God did this. Carolyn Arends writes:

It demands a careful delineation between the theory of evolution (which describes a process) and a philosophy of naturalism (which assumes that the process is all there is)…But there’s no point in hiding these difficulties from our children. The world—and our understanding of God’s ways within it—has always been full of mystery and challenge. Our task is to raise up believers willing to affirm the authority of the Bible in all its fascinating and culturally situated complexity. We need kids who are unafraid to ask the sorts of tough and exciting theological, philosophical, and scientific questions you can only ask when you know that, however this world came to be, God did it.

I live in the northeast United States, where fundamentalism is poorly-regarded on the whole. Most of the people who attend my church are college-educated professionals. Nevertheless, they are nearly all hostile towards evolution.  Since my wife and I assist in the ministry to youth, this has led to some difficulties.

Two years ago, the youth pastor started to show in Sunday school a series of videos from the “Truth Project“, which was produced by Focus on the Family. The intent of the Truth Project is to define and defend a “biblical worldview” to help Christians stand against the prevailing secular consensus.  The Truth Project makes a number of worthwhile points. Unfortunately, two of the biggest planks in its platform are that evolution is factually untrue, and it is necessarily anti-religious and thus is to blame for various social evils and unbelief. The evidence proffered for the untruth of evolution consisted mainly of obsolete and out of context quotes from scientists regarding transitional species in the fossil record. (see here and here  for critiques of the Truth Project). After I had seen a couple of these episodes shown in the class, I urged the youth pastor to drop this video series, since it was scientifically inaccurate and was setting kids up to lose their faith if they later realized evolution is true. To his credit, while he did not agree with me on evolution, he did stop showing these videos and moved on to something else.

Knowing the subject to be controversial, I generally avoided bringing up the subject of creation with the church youth.  However, there were times when I was leading small group discussions when a boy would confidently pass along some scornful remark about, say, the Big Bang origin of the universe, and the other young heads would nod in agreement. Presumably they had heard these anti-science comments at home. Since they were airing falsehoods, I felt obliged to let them know that there were differing  opinions on this subject among Bible-believing Christians, and that I found all the physical evidence to show that the Big Bang and evolution were the means through which God had chosen to form today’s world.

A few months ago the pastor of children’s ministries sat my wife and me down and told us that there had been complaints from some parents of these children; if we wanted to continue serving, we had to agree to not discuss the subject of evolution with the youth.  Under the circumstances, we did consent. By then I was accustomed to taking flak from my brethren on this subject, and I could sympathize with the pastors’ desire to avoid controversy over a non-core issue.

Ways to Deal with the Genesis Creation Story

A number of approaches are used to relate the Genesis creation account to the physical evidence. I cycled through several of them in my beliefs over the past forty years.

In mainstream Young Earth (YE) creationism, Genesis 1 is taken at face value. The universe was created in six, presumably 24-hour days, about 4000 B.C. as calculated from Biblical genealogies.  Most sedimentary rock layers were laid down in Noah’s Flood about 2500 B.C.  This event was a world-wide catastrophe in which all land was submerged, and all humans perished except for the eight members of Noah’s family on the Ark. This viewpoint is still widely-believed in the evangelical Christian community in the U.S. and elsewhere.

YE creationism lost its appeal for me once I realized it was not true to the physical facts. Also, a scriptural problem I see with YE creationism is that obvious evidence of a 6,000 year old creation, with rock layers from Noah’s Flood, would constitute a widely-accessible supernatural “sign”. This would contradict Matt. 16:4, where Jesus stated that, as a general rule, no sign would be granted unbelievers except the “sign of Jonah”, i.e. Jesus’ resurrection after several days in the “belly of the earth”. (Although the reports of the Resurrection are relatively well-attested historically, it still requires faith to embrace those reports.)

I found I was in good company in endorsing an old earth. By the dawn of the twentieth century, nearly all Christians, even the most conservative fundamentalists, had accepted the evidence for the antiquity of the earth.  W.B. Riley, editor of The Christian Fundamentalist and president of the Anti-Evolution League of America, stated in the 1920’s that there was not “an intelligent fundamentalist who claims that the earth was made six thousand years ago; and the Bible never taught any such thing”.   The Reasons to Believe site lists about 40 well-known, impeccably conservative Christian leaders and writers that endorse or are at least open to an old-earth perspective. These include names like Gleason Archer, Michael Behe, Chuck Colson, Norman Geisler, Hank Hannegraff, C. S. Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, C. I. Schofield, Lee Stroble, and B. B. Warfield. Ditto for John Piper.

There are several varieties of “Old Earth” creationism, where it is accepted that the earth is billions of years old. These approaches may or may not accept evolution. The “Gap Theory” was popularized a century ago in the Scofield annotated Bible. Here, the Earth was created eons ago (Gen 1:1), but became “without form and void” (Gen 1:2) 6000 years ago, in a catastrophe associated with Satan’s activity. The fossils we find are mainly from this pre-Adamite world. The remainder of Genesis 1 describes God’s reconstruction of a habitable world in six days. Superficially, this allows for an old earth, but doesn’t fare much better than YE creationism in matching the physical evidence.

The Day-Age or Progressive approach has been highly developed by Hugh Ross as part of his Reasons To Believe  ministry. Here, each of the six “days” in Genesis 1 represents an age lasting millions or billions of years, in consecutive, chronological order. Noah’s Flood is seen as a local affair, not involving all mankind; this explains why we find no evidence of a recent global deluge. Ross rejects macro-evolution.

I bought into this point of view for over a decade. However, after I found that the physical evidence actually confirms macro-evolution, I re-evaluated the Day-Age approach. As noted earlier in Part 1, this form of Old Earth creationism cannot account satisfactorily for the nature of the fossil record.   If life did not develop over the ages by evolution according to ordinary physical laws, then the Day-Age proponent is forced to say that God supernaturally created species after species after species, millions of them over hundreds of millions of years, to populate the rock layers in an order that mimics evolutionary expectations. That is just not credible.

Furthermore, indefensible interpretations must be forced on the Genesis text in order to conform the Days to known physical chronology. For instance, in Genesis the sun and moon and stars were not made until Day 4, which in the Day-Age approach is millions of years after the earth’s atmosphere and dry land formed. That is not physically realistic. Day-Age proponents attempt to finesse this problem by proposing that for the first three Days the earth’s atmosphere was nearly opaque with thick clouds. During Day 4 the atmosphere cleared, such that for the first time the sun and moon (which in Ross’s model were actually created on Day 1) became distinctly visible from the earth’s surface. However, that is not what the text says. The Hebrew words describing the events of Day 4 clearly mean that the sun and moon were “made” then, in the sense of formed or created on that day, not that they “became visible” then.

Modern interpreters assume that the ancient writers could not possibly have meant to write that the sun was created after the appearance of light and of “evening and morning”, which separated the six days. But that is because we know that the light of sky comes almost entirely from the sun, as its rays are scattered by molecules of air. But most ancients did not know that; they thought that the sky could well be lighted apart from the sun. After all, it becomes light at dawn well before the sun actually rises above the horizon. So there would be no problem to have evening and morning before there was a sun. If the days were normal, 24-hour days, there would be no problem with vegetation being created on Day 3, and the sun not created until Day 4. This would not work if the days lasted many thousands of years, as in the Day-Age scheme.

Also, the Day-Age attempt to minimize Noah’s Flood as a local incident does not comport with the Genesis account of the Flood and the subsequent re-population of the whole world, or at least the whole Middle East, from Noah’s three sons.  Old Earth Ministries, a fine source of geological facts that counter YE creationism,  presents a more flexible version of the Day-Age theory, and is agnostic about macro-evolution.

In the “Proclamation Days” approach to interpreting Genesis 1, the six Days are days (possibly before creation began) on which God proclaimed the next phase of creative activity; the actual outworkings may take place at some unspecified, possibly overlapping time after each proclamation. In the “Visionary Days” view, the Days of Genesis 1 are six days during which God showed visions of the creation to Moses. The ordering of these visions may or may not correspond to the chronology of the actual creation events.

According to the “Literary Framework” approach (fleshed out here), the Days of Genesis 1 are organized thematically, not chronologically. Days 1-3 define realms formed by separations (day/night;  sky/sea;  dry land), and Days 4-6 describe the rulers or occupants (sun/moon;  birds/fish;  land animals) of these respective realms. There was no intention in Genesis of presenting a physically accurate order of creation events. This is the viewpoint that seems most realistic to me, although it takes severe reinterpretation to take a chronological tale of logically successive activities performed on successive (first, second, third…) days and rearrange them so dramatically.

All of these approaches can smooth away the differences between the order of events in Genesis 1 and physical reality, but leave open the interpretation of the Adam and Eve creation/fall story. However, folks who try this hard to protect Genesis 1 from the accusation of historical inaccuracy usually have difficulty in letting go of a special creation of Adam and Eve, since that is presented in such detail in Genesis 2.

Some interpreters accept the ancient, evolutionary origins of mankind, but still want to link Genesis 2-3 to some real historical events. Maybe Genesis 2-3  refers to some real couple, perhaps in the Neolithic Middle East. These were the first humans to whom God revealed Himself explicitly, as God later sovereignly revealed Himself to Abraham and made covenant with him. Abraham’s choices affected both his genealogical descendants and the rest of humanity, so the same sort of covenantal transaction might have transpired between the primal Selected Couple and God. This concept has some theological merit, but cannot readily be squared with the graphic descriptions of Eve being specially created from a bone excised from the side of Adam’s body in Genesis 2, or the indication in Genesis 3 that prior to the Fall weeds did not compete with food crops.

The “Intelligent Design” position promulgated by the Design Institute falls into the Old Earth/anti-evolution category. Stephen Meyer and his colleagues generally accept an ancient earth, but typically do not proclaim that clearly and up-front (perhaps to avoid alienating their YE creationist allies), and do not propose any specific reconciliation between science and the Days of Genesis 1.

A common perspective among my evangelical friends is the “Appearance of Age.” The notion here is that the world was created only a few thousand years ago, but it was created in a mature or developed form, so it appears to be ancient. Thus, a star a million light-years away was created along with the starlight occupying the line of sight from that star to earth, so that we can see that star now instead of waiting a million years for its light to reach us. Adam and Eve were created looking as if they had been born twenty years earlier, with navels. The rock layers look as if they formed over the course of hundreds of millions of years.

What my friends fail to appreciate is that observations of rocks and stars show not just old-looking objects, but a whole detailed, interlocking history of events dating back billions of years. The fossil record shows a succession of species over the past half-billion years, as if they developed via evolution.  The human genome contains many chunks of DNA that look as if they were injected by viruses millions of years in the past; chimpanzees share many of these same retrovirus sequences with us, making it look as if humans and chimps had a common ancestor. A supernovae was observed in 1987 , from a star 186,000 light-years away. This looks as if a real star really exploded 186,000 years ago, with an expanding ring of gases now visible.

Also, the deception here would have to extend well past the initial “week” of creation. God would also have had to erase all traces of a world-engulfing Flood which killed all but eight humans and most terrestrial species and scoured the crust of the earth. This global cover-up would entail reworking all the surface rock layers to erase traces of the Flood; rejiggering the human genome to make it look as if the human race did not go through such a severe population bottleneck; transporting a bunch of marsupial mammals to Australia to make it look as if they evolved in place on that isolated continent; creating levels of apparently human artifacts, complete with sequential carbon dates, to make it look as if civilizations continued uninterrupted right through the Flood epoch (c. 2500 B.C.) in China, India, Egypt, and Mesopotamia; and thousands of other acts of duplicity.

This “apparent age” viewpoint seems to solve the any conflict between the Bible and science, since it allows for a literal interpretation of Genesis while not disputing the physical evidence that points to an old Earth. It appeals to Christians who want to minimize contention over the subject of origins, and is less harmful than some other creation views. However, it makes God the author of deception on such a cosmic scale that we are left not knowing what is real. Maybe the whole universe, including our underlined Bibles, and us with our scars and our memories of things that never really happened, was all created just last Tuesday – with the apparent age viewpoint, you cannot tell.

Christians who accept the findings of modern science, including evolution, typically view the Genesis creation story as being allegorical or pedagogical, rather than historical. This is technically a form of Old Earth creationism, but is usually broken out separately as “Evolutionary Creationism” or “Theistic Evolution.”  This is the main viewpoint within Roman Catholicism, and an accepted one in Eastern Orthodoxy.

However, one cannot just say, “The Genesis creation story is allegorical,” and walk away as if that has resolved all the difficulties. The New Testament writers refer to Adam and Noah as real individuals.  Furthermore, in Romans 5 and I Corinthians 15, Paul links Christ’s redemptive work to the figure of a sinless, then fallen Adam. If humans as a group developed gradually from earlier primates, that seems to undercut Paul’s teaching on how the first man’s first sin set up the need for, and method of, redemption.

Thus, it is entirely understandable that most evangelical Christians have deep reservations over releasing the historicity of the Genesis creation story. I found a perspective that addressed my concerns in this area, but it took me a while to get there.

Reckoning with Ancient Science

By the time I engaged these issues (2008-2010), a number of recent, relevant books by evangelical Christians were available. These included Darrel Falk’s Coming to Peace with Science (2004), Gordon Glover’s Beyond the Firmament (2007), and Denis Lamoureux’s Evolutionary Creationism (2008). Falk’s book has a particularly readable and thorough explanation of the evidence for evolution.  All of these books argue that we must recognize that the ancient Israelites had existing notions of the physical universe, and that God accommodated His revelation to the science of that day. Paul Seely’s Inerrant Wisdom (1987) explores in depth this divine accommodation, and exposes the fallacies involved in literal inerrancy.

People in the Middle East in the time of Moses “knew” that the earth was immovably fastened to its foundations, the sky overhead was a solid dome, and animals reproduced strictly after their kind (no evolution). God could have corrected this ancient science, but chose not to. This was not a mistake or “error.” Rather, God wisely and graciously accommodated His spiritual revelation to the existing physical understanding, in order to facilitate communication of vital spiritual and relational concepts. It would have been pointless and confusing if the Israelites had been given a creation account in terms of today’s science (Big Bang, supernovae, plate tectonics, dinosaurs, etc.).

I realized that I, like many Bible-believing Christians, had an unbiblical view of the scope of authority of the Bible.  All Scripture is inspired by God – but for what purpose?  The Scripture is inerrant, but in respect to what, exactly?  Paul spells it out very clearly in II Tim. 3:15-17 [NKJV]:

…from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.        All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

There is nothing here about authoritatively teaching geology or biology. Likewise, Jesus said that the function of the Old Testament was to testify about him and his saving work (John 5:40; Luke 24:44). Peter (I Pet 1: 10-12) wrote that prophets spoke of the sufferings and glory of Christ. Again, this is all theology and morals, nothing about teaching on the physical details of creation. This is a biblical view of the Bible’s intent, which differs from some evangelical statements about inerrancy which mistakenly over-extend the Bible’s sphere of authority into general science.

The Genesis account provided a means to powerfully communicate key concepts about God, humans, and the world. While employing the categories of ancient Near Eastern “science”, it completely overturned the pagan theology.  In contrast to the quarrelling, needy gods of the pagans, the Genesis story depicts the Hebrew God as in control, calmly and freely choosing to create the universe, and delighting in his work.

In pagan thought, the celestial lights represented gods which held power over men. The Israelites themselves had a hard time shaking off worship of the sun and moon (Job 31:26-28). Genesis 1 thoroughly subverts this idolatry: the sun, moon and stars are totally demythologized, being mere created objects. Ironically, instead of humans serving them, the celestial luminaries are (in Genesis) to serve humans by providing light and marking off the days and seasons.

The closest parallel to the Genesis story is the Babylonian creation myth known as Enuma Elish. There humans are created out of the blood of a slain god in order to be slaves, working so that the gods could be relieved of their labors and be at ease.  In Genesis, mankind has a far more dignified status. Adam is created from ordinary matter and then infused with the breath of life from God, being “in the image of God.” God does not need Adam’s labor or sacrifices. Instead, God works for the benefit of mankind, graciously giving them authority over the whole earth (Gen. 1), and making a fruitful garden and a suitable mate for Adam (Gen. 2). God does “rest” at the end of the Genesis creation epic, but this is because He is satisfied with what He has sovereignly spoken into being, not because some flunky is fanning Him with a palm leaf.

Thus, the pre-scientific Genesis creation account effectively accomplished what II Tim 3:15-17 says is the purpose of the Scriptures. It vividly conveyed a high doctrine of God’s goodness and power, and His authority to give moral direction to humankind. It was thus “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” Retaining the ancient physical concepts (instead of trying to correct them) was essential in accomplishing this divine purpose for the people to whom this revelation was given.

It is unreasonable to demand that a creation story that spoke to a pre-scientific people in their familiar terms must also be amenable to modern readers with 21st century physics. To mediate between ancient and modern worldviews is a regular part of the task of translation. We do it with the views of women and slaves, covenants and kings, shepherds and sheep, and Hebrew and Greek idioms. It is thus faithful and appropriate for us to glean the essential teachings about God and nature from Genesis, without getting trapped into defending its physical details.

The Master Storyteller

Hollywood screenwriter Brian Godawa notes:

In the Bible the dominant means through which God communicates his truth is visually dramatic stories—not systematic theology, or doctrinal catechism or rational argument. A survey of the Scriptures reveals that roughly 30 percent of the Bible is expressed through rational propositional truth and laws, while 70 percent of the Bible is story, vision, symbol and narrative. Sure, God uses words, rationality and propositions to communicate his message. But modern evangelicalism has not always recognized how important visual imagery, drama and storytelling are to God.

To really “get” the Bible requires an appreciation of the role of story in communicating worldview. Regarding Genesis, Falk writes,“There is no other way that God could tell the story of his love and desire for the church than to show us the imagery of his reaching into Adam’s side, removing it, and creating Eve. It points forward to the new creation, for this is exactly what he did to his own Son when he reached down into the Son’s bleeding body and at the expense of that body created the church….the bride of Christ.”  To provide covering for Adam and Eve’s nakedness, God Himself gives them animal skins. Presumably the former occupants of those skins were killed in the process, illustrating the principle of sacrifice to cover the transgressions of others.  The prediction (Gen 3:15) that the “seed of the woman” would crush the serpent’s head, yet be wounded in the heel, may have foreshadowed the day when a man born of woman would defeat the ancient tempter, at the price of having spikes driven through his wrists and his heels.  The imagery and story-line here communicate more pungently than could a set of dry doctrinal statements.

Jesus’ primary mode of communication was to tell stories that never really happened:  “With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable” (Mark 4:33-34, NIV).  To argue over whether there really was a Good Samaritan is to completely miss the point of the parable. The same goes for arguing over the historicity of Genesis.

Telling stories that didn’t really happen was a well-established device for the Israelites, especially when the occasion involves calling someone to account for their sin. For instance, in I Kings 20 a prophet wants to rebuke King Ahab for sparing an enemy king. The prophet does so by disguising himself with a headband and telling a made-up story about having let a captive escape. After he got the king to agree that that sort of irresponsibility deserved judgment, the prophet whipped off his headband and revealed that this story was really about the king’s actions. But note, the story itself, like the Genesis creation narrative, was not literally true.

When the prophet Nathan confronted David over killing Uriah and taking Uriah’s wife Bathsheba, Nathan started off with telling a story about a rich man robbing a poor man of a lamb. Nathan presented it as a true story, even though it was not. After David himself pronounced judgment on such behavior, Nathan rounded on him and said “You are the rich man in this story!”  It would have been inappropriate for David to brand Nathan as a false prophet for telling a story that was not literally true. Likewise, it is inappropriate to criticize Genesis for being factually inaccurate or to criticize evolutionary creationists for pointing out this inaccuracy.

For most of Jesus’ parables, the hearer is expected to figure out that the story is not really about some son who ran away and fed pigs or about some unfortunate traveler who got mugged on the way to Jericho. The hearer needs to enter into the story and see that he or she is represented by one or more of the characters in it; that was the point of the parable, not whether the story itself ever actually happened.

So it is with the Eden narrative.  After first reading it as a story about someone else, and clucking over the arrogance, faithlessness and blame-shifting exhibited by the First Couple (and maybe even blaming them for our failings), the alert reader should realize that “I am that man and that woman – I have done the same things, and I, too, am in need of divine covering.” We are all Adam (“Adam” in Hebrew means “man” or “mankind”), choosing to doubt God’s goodness and to blame others for our mistakes.

I have dealt with the theological implications of the Fall here:  Adam, the Fall, and Evolution.  That essay also deals with the “slippery slope” argument, by noting the fundamental differences between the Genesis story and the more or less eyewitness accounts of the New Testament events. Thus, the fear-mongers are incorrect to claim that rejecting a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3 leads inevitably to denying a literal Resurrection.

I won’t rehash all those arguments here. The bottom line is that a literal Adam and a literal Fall are not essential to the gospel. Paul develops the universality of sin in Romans 1-3 with no mention of original sin. He moves from, “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness… although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him” (1:18-21) to “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (3:23) quite apart from Adam.  In all the gospel proclamations to both Jews and Gentiles recorded in the Book of Acts, there is not a single reference to Adam’s sin. The Fall is never mentioned in the sayings of Jesus.  On the contrary, Jesus directed people away from religious speculations or blaming others, and towards a consciousness of their own shortcomings and their personal need for mercy.

Another concern I had was whether evolution threatens our status as bearers of God’s image. I was offended at the thought that we came from apes, but I realized the biological reality is even more humiliating. You and I come, not from monkeys, but from single-celled eggs. We, today, are all made from chemicals, starting from egg and sperm. This is true of all humans now living, and their parents and grandparents. Therefore, how God physically made the first human bodies (whether from dust or from other primates) is completely irrelevant to the status of us today – – our humanity or value or image of God.

How a conscious, responsible soul becomes associated with the localized net of neurons in our skull remains mysterious. It cannot be the case that God simply assigns a soul to an egg as soon as it is fertilized:  identical twins result from the division of an egg after it is fertilized, yet presumably they each have their own soul. It seems wise to remain humbly non-dogmatic on this matter.

What Was I Thinking?

How was I persuaded as an undergraduate that the earth is only 6000 years old? Although I was a liberal arts major at that point, I had a decent grasp of general science and a techie bent. YE creationism was not a position I came to on my own steam. Rather, I was persuaded by the efforts of young earth advocates, who wage an energetic campaign for the hearts and minds of conservative Christians. Several YE creationist organizations (e.g. Answers in Genesis, Institute for Creation Research, Creation Ministries International, etc.)  are still going strong, publishing magazines (often with some engaging animal photo on the cover), a “technical” journal, and daily features on their websites.

By insisting that a young earth perspective is the only faithful reading of the Bible, they set up in me a strong desire to believe in it. Also, they wove a comforting, inspiring meta-narrative around the details of a literal six-day special creation of a beautiful paradise which was later ruined by man’s sin. That was much warmer and fuzzier than the evolutionary picture of hundreds of millions of years of cold-blooded animals eating each other.

For physical evidence, the YE creationists presented a number of observations which supposedly could not be accounted for within mainstream science. These included fossilized trees poking through many feet of rock layers, the amount of salts in the ocean, the decay rate of the Earth’s magnetic field, the rate of recession of the moon, rock layers apparently out of order and discrepant radioactive dates of rocks. Today there are many books and websites that debunk, with precise detail, all these young earth science claims. You can google the subject and in minutes find these refutations conveniently tabulated on sites like TalkOrigins, the anti-pseudo-science RationalWiki  , and the Christian Old Earth Ministries. That was not the case in the 1970s. It was much more cumbersome back then to locate specialized information.

By the 1990s I had cooled towards the YE viewpoint, as a result of more science exposure and encounters in seminary that opened my mind to the plausibility of non-literal Bible interpretations. Nevertheless, it was bothersome that I did not have clear explanations for those purported young earth examples. In one of Hugh Ross’s books, he listed and debunked a set of leading evidences for a young earth. Reading that helped to settle my mind. It was particularly convincing coming from a fellow Christian, who offered an alternative Bible-honoring system of interpretation.

That still left me in the anti-evolution camp. By the mid-late 1990s, literature from Intelligent Design (ID) movement was available. Most of the ID proponents (e.g. Meyer, Behe, and Dembski) had legitimate academic credentials, seemed reasonable and sincere, and were telling me what I wanted to hear. The ID folks (centered in the Discovery Institute in Seattle) publish an ongoing series of books and on-line articles, packaged to appeal to educated Christians such as me. They motivate the faithful by claiming that belief in evolution is not only intellectually unfounded, but leads to various social and moral ills.

By failing to appreciate the historic doctrine of God’s providence in natural affairs, ID proponents actually buy into the atheist misconception that development of the earth and its life-forms according to natural laws excludes God or morality. This is why ID tries to identify “gaps” in evolutionary history which cannot be explained by natural processes; these gaps can thus only be filled by some Intelligent Agent (who must be, for all practical purposes, eternal and omnipotent in order to keep intervening with complex genomes at key points over geologic timescales).

The evidence for an old earth is obvious to anyone with an open mind. For instance, one good look at an angular unconformity in the rocks such as this , followed by a few moments of reflection on the physical steps it would take to produce such a formation, should be enough to dispel any notion of a one-year worldwide Flood being responsible for the sedimentary rock layers. Geologists (most of them Christians) had figured this out by the 1830’s, long before Darwin or radioactive dating. Ditto for contemplation of buried coral reefs or thousand-foot-thick limestone layers .

The evidence for evolution is just as pervasive as for an old earth, but it is more subtle. It so happens that evolution is a relatively slow process. Therefore, we don’t generally see radically new species, or radically new/improved genes, developing within the time-scale of human observations. Although there are many examples of intermediate fossils, we don’t find a complete series of all every single ancestral transitional form in the fossil record. There is clear genetic evidence that humans and chimpanzees evolved from a common ancestor. For a non-scientist audience, however, it may take many minutes of education on the fundamentals before an evolutionary explanation of a given issue can be developed.

Because these explanations often involve chains of logic rather than a simple picture, they may come across as mealy-mouthed excuses rather than straightforward answers. Also, molecular biology is a much younger science than geology, tackling an arguably more complex subject, so there is much that is still unresolved. Thus, it is easy for ID proponents to seize on some recent journal article regarding some cutting-edge, controversial topic and claim, “See, even the mainstream scientists admit that evolutionary science is in hopeless disarray.” To unravel some of these controversies takes more than a 30-second sound bite.

For these reasons, the falsehood of the anti-evolution arguments was not apparent to me until relatively recently.  When I did decide (as described in Part 1) to dig down to the truth here, it took me hundreds of hours to gain some elementary knowledge of mutations and population genetics and the fossil record, then trace the back-and-forth arguments on particular issues.   In the end, I found that the Intelligent Design arguments against evolution are of the same general type as those for a young earth: they are all based on presenting partial truths. The success of these arguments depends on emphasizing a selected set of facts (or non-facts), while keeping the rest of the facts out of view. This is easy to do, since the ID audience consists mainly of non-scientists who are eager for grounds to support their skepticism towards evolution.

Every now and then, I get intrigued by some new ID argument against evolution, and work through the pros and cons to my satisfaction. This has led to some further blog posts here, such as Cambrian Contention: Disputing “Darwin’s Doubt” , Junk DNA, the ENCODE Project, and Intelligent Design: Facts, Hype, and Spin [debunking the ID claim that ENCODE results have overturned the notion of lots of “junk” in the human genome], and Gorilla, Orangutan, Chimp and Human Genomes: Population Genetics and Intelligent Design .  Panda’s Thumb and the Christian site Biologos are reliable resources for correcting the inaccuracies in ID publications.

I continue to stay engaged in this area out of general interest, and because dispelling public misconceptions about science is a responsible contribution to society. I am also concerned about the effect on the church and its youth of inaccurate teachings about origins. Here is a telling lament from a missionary in the former Soviet Union:

The worst aspect of YECS [Young Earth Creation Science] teaching is that it creates a nearly insurmountable barrier between the educated world and the church. .. How many have chosen to give up their faith altogether rather than to accept scientific nonsense or a major reinterpretation of Scripture? How much have we dishonored our Lord by slandering scientists and their reputation? How much have we sinned against Christian brothers holding another opinion by naming them “dangerous” and “compromisers”? …Pastors need to rethink these issues as outlined above and teach a responsible Christian viewpoint with all humility…Christian radio and TV stations need to invite qualified speakers to wrestle with these issues in a responsible way…Finally, missionaries and evangelists need to get materials expressing other viewpoints translated to oppose the virtual monopoly YECS teaching has overseas. As I write this paper, I see YECS literature becoming more and more widely distributed in the growing churches in my corner of the former Soviet Union. We are sowing the seeds of a major crisis which will make the job of world evangelism even harder than it is already.

Perspective on Dealing with Young Earth Creationism and Intelligent Design

YE creationism and Intelligent Design engender strong passions. To some fundamentalists, only YE creationism can save the church and the nation from the abyss of amoral materialism. For instance, in his book Already Gone (critically reviewed here ) Ken Ham blames the lack of firm YE creationist teaching for the loss of teens from the church. To some secularists, YE creationism is holding the nation back on scientific progress.  I have read comments online by atheists suggesting that the government should prevent parents from brainwashing their children with YE creationism. Both extremes are, well, extreme. It’s really not so bad.

To my fellow science-literate citizens, I can offer this solace: the very compartmentalization that allows YE creationists to hold nonsensical views on origins despite all the contrary evidence also allows them to function as responsible, tax-paying, technology-using citizens despite holding those nonsensical views on origins. One can be productive in practically any job, including most branches of science and engineering, without believing that humans evolved from other primates. For instance, I was no less effective in chemical research a decade ago when I was skeptical about evolution than I am now. Also, the courts have consistently ruled against teaching of intelligent design in public schools, so the ongoing efforts to introduce ID into the schools should not survive legal challenge.

To my Christian brethren who are worried about the impact of evolution on their children I offer this observation: Evolution has only as much power to destroy faith as you give it. It is tempting to pressure your Bible-believing child to reject evolution by telling him, “If evolution is true, the Bible is false.” However, you will then bear some responsibility if he (taking you at your word) concludes the Bible is false when he eventually discovers that evolution is true. There are poignant stories on the web from mothers reliving the day their son came home from school and told them that he had found evolution to be true, and therefore he saw no place for God. That sort of tragedy is totally unnecessary.

Although I was skeptical of evolution during the years I was raising my children, I did not make that an article of faith and did not pit the Bible against modern science. I exposed my children to a wide range of fiction and non-fiction books by C.S. Lewis. Lewis does not argue against the fact of evolution, but against the myths of evolution; he arms believers against the propaganda from both fundamentalists and atheists which portrays evolution as a threat to Christianity. Today my adult children are vibrant believers who can deal fearlessly with any academic subject. I hope the discussion above on Bible interpretation can help you back away from a literalism which is actually an unfaithful reading of Genesis.

Although I have bashed young earth and ID publications for being deceitful, in fairness we should note that there is a lot of other communication that is just as one-sided. Practically all advertisements, newspaper editorials, and campaign speeches, and whole magazines and books on the political left and on the right, present only the facts that support their narrow point of view.

Most of these ardent advocates (whether creationists, new atheists, or political conservatives/liberals) actually believe that what they are writing is a realistic representation of matters. We humans have a strong tendency towards confirmation bias, i.e. we attend more to facts and opinions which confirm what we already believe. This is not the same as conscious dishonesty. The YE creationist who engages in internet debates, and who is maddeningly impervious to the factors that refute his position, is genuinely unable to admit into his consciousness those contrary facts (in their full implications) which are thrown at him by his opponents.  This is a well-known psychological syndrome with YE creationists, known as “Morton’s demon”, which is discussed here.  This sounds like a bizarre and detestable characteristic – – until you go to someone that you clash with and ask them sincerely, “Do I have any blind spots?”

While there will always be holdouts, not everyone who currently holds to YE creationism or Intelligent Design is unreachable. There are plenty of people like me who sat under young earth teaching in their youth, but later got free.

My suggestion to secular biology educators is to find appropriate ways to ease the religious fears of your students who are resistant towards evolution. That will likely be more effective than trying to beat them down with yet more examples of congruent phylogenies or shared retroviruses. I hope this post may be a resource to that end. Another, more formal resource is this Biologos article, “Why should Christians consider evolutionary creation?” , which includes a number of good links to further testimonies and articles.

About Scott Buchanan

Ph D chemical engineer, interested in intersection of science with my evangelical Christian faith. This intersection includes creation(ism) and miracles. I also write on random topics of interest, such as economics, theology, folding scooters, and composting toilets, at www.letterstocreationistists.wordpress.com . Background: B.A. in Near Eastern Studies, a year at seminary and a year working as a plumber and a lab technician. Then a B.S.E. and a Ph.D. in chemical engineering. Since then, conducted research in an industrial laboratory. Published a number of papers on heterogeneous catalysis, and an inventor on over 100 U.S. patents in diverse technical areas. Now retired and repurposed as a grandparent.
This entry was posted in Age of Earth, Bible Interpretation, Evolution, Intelligent Design and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

50 Responses to Evolution and Faith: My Story, Part 2

  1. I’ll be interested to see how young earth creationists might respond.

  2. Pingback: Evolution and Faith: My Story, Part 1 | Letters to Creationists

  3. Daniel Carroll says:

    I greatly appreciate your journey and thank you for sharing your insights. I followed a similar journey, though with far less technical detail, in the 1990’s. My faith was never seriously threatened by an allegorical reading of Genesis, for basically two reasons. First, a close examination of the early chapters of Genesis made it clear to me that they were never intended to be read literally in the sense that modern evangelicals read it. They are stories pulled from ancient traditions designed to convey eternal truths about the human condition. Ancients, not only Hebrews but most non-Western cultures read stories for what they are and are not concerned with literal accuracy. Second, an analysis of the literal hermeneutic and the doctrine of inerrancy suggested that not only are they irrational, but largely unbiblical. I hold an incarnational view of scripture (sometimes called Chalcedonian, after the creed affirming the incarnation), in that the bible emerged from human history and human hands, through human language, and is fully human as well as fully divine in the eternal truths it communicates. It is the story of God’s relationship with humanity, and the other way around. It is the story of the divine touching the human, and all of the contradictions and confusion that is likely to produce. The fusion of the imperfect with the perfect poses the same mystery as it does with Christ Himself. This stands in contrast to inerrancy, which in its most extreme form, holds that scripture is dictated by God and the writers are essentially possessed – not much different than how Allah dictated the Koran. Fundamentalists, not coincidentally, often subconsciously minimize the humanity of Christ. The Chalcedonian view of scripture encourages the examination of the historical and cultural context as a key to understanding the meaning of the passages, rather than reading them in a vacuum with a modern lens. With that overlay, and an understanding that the early chapters of Genesis were probably translated from early Sumarian text to early Hebrew writings, and then later compiled by Moses, the stories of Genesis come alive with greater clarity and meaning.

    • Daniel,
      re:
      “I hold an incarnational view of scripture (sometimes called Chalcedonian, after the creed affirming the incarnation), in that the bible emerged from human history and human hands, through human language, and is fully human as well as fully divine in the eternal truths it communicates. It is the story of God’s relationship with humanity, and the other way around. It is the story of the divine touching the human, and all of the contradictions and confusion that is likely to produce. ”

      I hadn’t seen it put so clearly before. That helps explain why revelation is not always as tidy as we would like. Thanks…

  4. Becky says:

    This type of oversimplification is at root of what inevitably corrupts every organized religion. Faulty assumptions from the get-go, unquestioned. “If all Scripture is inspired by God, and God cannot lie or make a mistake, then it would seem that all Scripture must be inerrant. ” The old and new testaments are collections of ancient writings, translated, re-translated and bent to political aims, repeatedly. To truly celebrate the awe, spirituality and mystery of the wisdom within, you simply can’t start with a statement like that and be an honest seeker. Who said it’s all inspired by God? Matthew Mark Luke and John didn’t write the books with their names on them, common knowledge in scholarly circles, but I bet the average Christian would be shocked – SHOCKED! – to hear that. The line of political corruption that tainted the collection of stories in the Bible can be traced fairly well these days. But here’s the problem — if you seriously study these things, questions are raised. If you question what the (usually, in this country anyway) old white guy at the front of the church is insisting is true, you are told you aren’t a good Christian. Now here you are, tying yourself up in knots trying to make it all work. The Christ does not demand this, or any other set in stone course of action, in the way I interpret the oft-misused Bible. Blah blah blah (no offense, I am talking about all of the endless talking and bickering and analysis that goes on). It’s good to question and discuss, I agree, but it’s not a real discussion if you are starting from a fundamentally flawed premise.

    • Becky,
      You make a number of good points. I agree, we have no certainty on exactly when the 4 gospels were written, and by whom. That said, the core orthodox Christian teachings are well-attested from the first century onward, from sources other than the 4 gospels.

      For instance, in a letter written c 96 A.D. by Clement of Rome to the church at Corinth, scolding them for their factionalism, he refers to Paul’s letter as still being in their possession.(see e.g. here: https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/church-fathers/ ).

      This is the letter we now know as I Corinthians, dated to c. 57 A.D. There (chapter 15) Paul reminds his readers in Corinth that when he had been in Corinth some years earlier, he had taught them the message that he (Paul) had in turn been taught even more years earlier by the original apostles. This message concerned the atoning death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. This orthodox Christian gospel is echoed in dozens of passages in the writings of the church fathers before 150 A.D. (see the link above)

      And as for the gospels themselves, by 180 A.D. Irenaeus presents the four canonical gospels as being unquestionably accepted by most Christians, and by 150-200 A.D. we have actual physical fragments of portions of these gospels. So they must have been written before 150 , probably well before 150. That does not leave a lot of time for political machinations in their composition. And the respect shown by Jesus for women in those gospel stories was radically counter-culture for its day, hardly the stuff that purported male chauvinist redacters would make up.

      Agreed, there were competing teachings to the mainstream Christian views all along, and there have been substantive disputes over the canonicity of the last several books of the New Testament, and politics have often intruded in the teachings and practice of the church, but the claim, e.g. in The Da Vinci Code, that orthodox Christianity was a political creature of Constantine in 325 A.D. is not accurate.

      Best wishes for the holidays….

  5. Becky says:

    George Carlin said it well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo You don’t have to be an atheist to appreciate what he is saying.

  6. Johan Roos says:

    I much enjoyed reading parts 1 and 2, Scott. Thanks so much. I too am a committed Christian and a scientist, now retired, with a PhD and research experience in Analytical Chemistry. My views are slightly more conservative than yours, but very happy to accept the possibility (probability?) that evolution is on the right track, and can see it as the outworking of the Creators sovereign will. Thanks again for sharing your self and your journey with a wider constituency.

  7. Pingback: The Great Debate of 2014: Creationist Ken Ham versus Bill Nye the Science Guy | Letters to Creationists

  8. Very thought provoking blog Mr. Buchanan. Like you, I have a background in chemistry and have studied these topics for years. Given the time you have invested into this subject, Id like to ask a theological question regarding your conclusion of theistic evolution. If we accept evolution to be the means by which God created the species, then one must also accept that God created mankind with sin, since there was no literal Adam and Eve. It was not a choice but a part of natural selection and inherent in the evolutionary means by which we were created. This of course leads to the natural conclusion that God is holding mankind accountable for sin that he created us with, which contradicts the notion that God is just. How do you reconcile this with your belief in theistic evolution? Thanks.

    • Renaissance Man,
      You raise a good question. I don’t claim any original theological insights here. I’ll offer my thoughts for what they are worth. First, I appreciate Daniel Carroll’s comments here– he points out that having a literal Adam and Eve doesn’t really solve the responsibility-for-sin question.

      Second, I don’t think it is accurate to say that the Bible teaches that God created mankind with sin, then turns around and condemns man for that sin, i.e. something he has no control over. In the next chapter after the story of the Fall we have God counseling Cain, trying to keep him out of trouble, ” If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” (Gen 4:7). The notion here is that the potential to sin is present (and I guess God is responsible for setting things up this way), but the man is expected to “rule over” it.

      Is this realistic? Is it reasonable to posit the existence of drives and desires within man (which we can attribute at least in part to our evolutionary history), that he is expected to rule over by using some higher level of his consciousness? That makes sense to me, and is the basis of any sort of moral judgement, any attribution of legal responsibility, any definition of sanity.
      Hope this helps.

      I’ll just add that as the revelation in the Bible unfolds and presumably gets fuller and clearer, it seems the focus moves away from keeping rules, and toward loving the One who (whether directly or via 3 billion years of evolution) gave you life. Jesus was accepting towards the crooks and prostitutes. It was the men who thought they were doing just fine morally that Jesus cautioned about arrogant self-righteousness. I gave my take on the final judgement here: https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/2012/01/07/the-worlds-last-night-c-s-lewis-on-the-second-coming/

      • Johan Roos says:

        I am slightly concerned at the “easy dismissal” of the thought that Adam and Eve were actually real, historical people {I warned Scott that I was slightly more on the conservative side!]. I have no problem with the idea that there is much symbolism in Genesis 2 ff, but I find indications that it could well be “history, symbolically told”. The symbolic characteristics seem clear: the “dust of the earth”, Adam’s “rib” (which is better rendered “side”) and the trees “of the knowledge of good and evil” and “of life”, etc. But the historical core is also visible: the clear Neolithic background, the assertion that it was at that time that music, metal-working and city-building were developing, and the fact that this is set in the Ancient Near East where the Neolithic revolution originated, around 7 – 8000 BC.
        In addition, I have in my possession an article that appeared in The Smithsonian magazine which features a LANDSAT photograph showing four rivers that meet at the head of the Persian Gulf. One of these (the Pishon, Gen2: 11, now known as Wadi Batin) is a fossilised river and is visible only by its floodplain as seen from a satellite. Its course is through northern Arabia, a region where gold was mined until the 1950’s and where bdellium, an “aromatic resin” can still be found (see Gen 2: 11 & 12). The area of interest near where these four rivers come together could well be the site of the original Garden of Eden. It now lies under the waters of the Persian Gulf itself – it seems that the waters of the Gulf rose substantially about 4 000 BC and inundated the area around this area, a state of affairs that continues still today [1]
        The Bible describes Adam as “the first man” (1 Cor 15: 45, 47), but in the same verses Jesus is described as the last Adam (or the “last man”) (vs 45) and “the second Man” (vs 47). The emphasis here is on the contrast between Adam and Jesus Christ: Adam, a created being and representative of physical nature, the initiator of human disobedience; and Jesus, the Life-giving Saviour who came down from heaven. It does not seem that the words “first”, “second” and “last” are meant to be taken in any way numerically, but rather in a relative or comparative spiritual sense. Indeed, the Bible does not make any unambiguous claim that Adam was, literally speaking, the first man, although this is an assumption that is commonly made. Spanner comments that the biblical text “readily allows us to believe that Adam’s headship of the race was a representative one, and that universal physical descent from him is nowhere implied” [2]. Lest we forget, salvation in and through Jesus Christ also acts via a system of representation in that Jesus was both our Representative and Substitute under the divine judgement meted out upon human sin.
        CS Lewis [3] has suggested that there exists within God’s overall purpose for humankind an interconnectedness or commonality-of-being between all members of the human race, which acts at a deeper level than direct genetic descent or membership of a particular race or community. Wenham [4] refers to what he calls “corporate solidarity” and Kidner [5] points out that the Bible emphasises such solidarity over simple heredity. This quality of inter-relatedness, of which we are probably not even aware, is (he suggests) more profound than we can at present imagine. As a result, once sin entered the human scene through the disobedience of Adam and Eve it could spread to all members of the human race, whether or not they were descended from Adam.
        But there is yet a further twist in the tail! Computer modelling has recently been used to investigate the genealogical relationships between humans. The more refined models show remarkable relationships between genealogies. In effect, “these analyses suggest that the genealogies of all living humans overlap in remarkable ways in the recent past. In particular, the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all present-day humans lived just a few thousand years ago”, according to these models [6]! Moreover, each present-day human has exactly the same set of genealogical ancestors from among those individuals who lived perhaps 6 – 8 thousand years ago and earlier. If, as is implied by the authors, the results of the computer models can really be applied to such separated groups, the historical Adam and Eve would be among the distant common ancestors of all earth’s current inhabitants, as well as of those who have lived within the last 4 – 5 millennia.
        References.
        1. Has the Garden of Eden been located at last? in The Smithsonian (The Smithsonian Institution, New York, May 1987), pp. 128 – 135.
        2. Spanner, D. C. Unpublished Essay on Evolution and Creation. Available on the internet under DC Spanner.
        3. Lewis, C. S. The Problem of Pain (Fontana Books, London & Glasgow 1957), pp. 74 – 76.
        4. Wenham, J. W. The goodness of God (Intervarsity Press, London, 1974), pp. 74 ff.
        5. Kidner, Derek, The Tyndale Commentaries: Genesis (The Tyndale Press, London, 1967), p. 30.
        6. Rohde, Douglas L. T., Steve Olson and Joseph T. Chang. Nature 431, 562-566, 30 September 2004.

        I am slightly concerned at the “easy dismissal” of the thought that Adam and Eve were actually real, historical people {I warned Scott that I was slightly more on the conservative side!]. I have no problem with the idea that there is much symbolism in Genesis 2 ff, but I find indications that it could well be “history, symbolically told”. The symbolic characteristics seem clear: the “dust of the earth”, Adam’s “rib” (which is better rendered “side”) and the trees “of the knowledge of good and evil” and “of life”, etc. But the historical core is also visible: the clear Neolithic background, the assertion that it was at that time that music, metal-working and city-building were developing, and the fact that this is set in the Ancient Near East where the Neolithic revolution originated, around 7 – 8000 BC.
        In addition, I have in my possession an article that appeared in The Smithsonian magazine which features a LANDSAT photograph showing four rivers that meet at the head of the Persian Gulf. One of these (the Pishon, Gen2: 11, now known as Wadi Batin) is a fossilised river and is visible only by its floodplain as seen from a satellite. Its course is through northern Arabia, a region where gold was mined until the 1950’s and where bdellium, an “aromatic resin” can still be found (see Gen 2: 11 & 12). The area of interest near where these four rivers come together could well be the site of the original Garden of Eden. It now lies under the waters of the Persian Gulf itself – it seems that the waters of the Gulf rose substantially about 4 000 BC and inundated the area around this area, a state of affairs that continues still today [1]
        The Bible describes Adam as “the first man” (1 Cor 15: 45, 47), but in the same verses Jesus is described as the last Adam (or the “last man”) (vs 45) and “the second Man” (vs 47). The emphasis here is on the contrast between Adam and Jesus Christ: Adam, a created being and representative of physical nature, the initiator of human disobedience; and Jesus, the Life-giving Saviour who came down from heaven. It does not seem that the words “first”, “second” and “last” are meant to be taken in any way numerically, but rather in a relative or comparative spiritual sense. Indeed, the Bible does not make any unambiguous claim that Adam was, literally speaking, the first man, although this is an assumption that is commonly made. Spanner comments that the biblical text “readily allows us to believe that Adam’s headship of the race was a representative one, and that universal physical descent from him is nowhere implied” [2]. Lest we forget, salvation in and through Jesus Christ also acts via a system of representation in that Jesus was both our Representative and Substitute under the divine judgement meted out upon human sin.
        CS Lewis [3] has suggested that there exists within God’s overall purpose for humankind an interconnectedness or commonality-of-being between all members of the human race, which acts at a deeper level than direct genetic descent or membership of a particular race or community. Wenham [4] refers to what he calls “corporate solidarity” and Kidner [5] points out that the Bible emphasises such solidarity over simple heredity. This quality of inter-relatedness, of which we are probably not even aware, is (he suggests) more profound than we can at present imagine. As a result, once sin entered the human scene through the disobedience of Adam and Eve it could spread to all members of the human race, whether or not they were descended from Adam.
        But there is yet a further twist in the tail! Computer modelling has recently been used to investigate the genealogical relationships between humans. The more refined models show remarkable relationships between genealogies. In effect, “these analyses suggest that the genealogies of all living humans overlap in remarkable ways in the recent past. In particular, the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all present-day humans lived just a few thousand years ago”, according to these models [6]! Moreover, each present-day human has exactly the same set of genealogical ancestors from among those individuals who lived perhaps 6 – 8 thousand years ago and earlier. If, as is implied by the authors, the results of the computer models can really be applied to such separated groups, the historical Adam and Eve would be among the distant common ancestors of all earth’s current inhabitants, as well as of those who have lived within the last 4 – 5 millennia.
        References.
        1. Has the Garden of Eden been located at last? in The Smithsonian (The Smithsonian Institution, New York, May 1987), pp. 128 – 135.
        2. Spanner, D. C. Unpublished Essay on Evolution and Creation. Available on the internet under DC Spanner.
        3. Lewis, C. S. The Problem of Pain (Fontana Books, London & Glasgow 1957), pp. 74 – 76.
        4. Wenham, J. W. The goodness of God (Intervarsity Press, London, 1974), pp. 74 ff.
        5. Kidner, Derek, The Tyndale Commentaries: Genesis (The Tyndale Press, London, 1967), p. 30.
        6. Rohde, Douglas L. T., Steve Olson and Joseph T. Chang. Nature 431, 562-566, 30 September 2004.

        I am slightly concerned at the “easy dismissal” of the thought that Adam and Eve were actually real, historical people {I warned Scott that I was slightly more on the conservative side!]. I have no problem with the idea that there is much symbolism in Genesis 2 ff, but I find indications that it could well be “history, symbolically told”. The symbolic characteristics seem clear: the “dust of the earth”, Adam’s “rib” (which is better rendered “side”) and the trees “of the knowledge of good and evil” and “of life”, etc. But the historical core is also visible: the clear Neolithic background, the assertion that it was at that time that music, metal-working and city-building were developing, and the fact that this is set in the Ancient Near East where the Neolithic revolution originated, around 7 – 8000 BC.
        In addition, I have in my possession an article that appeared in The Smithsonian magazine which features a LANDSAT photograph showing four rivers that meet at the head of the Persian Gulf. One of these (the Pishon, Gen2: 11, now known as Wadi Batin) is a fossilised river and is visible only by its floodplain as seen from a satellite. Its course is through northern Arabia, a region where gold was mined until the 1950’s and where bdellium, an “aromatic resin” can still be found (see Gen 2: 11 & 12). The area of interest near where these four rivers come together could well be the site of the original Garden of Eden. It now lies under the waters of the Persian Gulf itself – it seems that the waters of the Gulf rose substantially about 4 000 BC and inundated the area around this area, a state of affairs that continues still today [1]
        The Bible describes Adam as “the first man” (1 Cor 15: 45, 47), but in the same verses Jesus is described as the last Adam (or the “last man”) (vs 45) and “the second Man” (vs 47). The emphasis here is on the contrast between Adam and Jesus Christ: Adam, a created being and representative of physical nature, the initiator of human disobedience; and Jesus, the Life-giving Saviour who came down from heaven. It does not seem that the words “first”, “second” and “last” are meant to be taken in any way numerically, but rather in a relative or comparative spiritual sense. Indeed, the Bible does not make any unambiguous claim that Adam was, literally speaking, the first man, although this is an assumption that is commonly made. Spanner comments that the biblical text “readily allows us to believe that Adam’s headship of the race was a representative one, and that universal physical descent from him is nowhere implied” [2]. Lest we forget, salvation in and through Jesus Christ also acts via a system of representation in that Jesus was both our Representative and Substitute under the divine judgement meted out upon human sin.
        CS Lewis [3] has suggested that there exists within God’s overall purpose for humankind an interconnectedness or commonality-of-being between all members of the human race, which acts at a deeper level than direct genetic descent or membership of a particular race or community. Wenham [4] refers to what he calls “corporate solidarity” and Kidner [5] points out that the Bible emphasises such solidarity over simple heredity. This quality of inter-relatedness, of which we are probably not even aware, is (he suggests) more profound than we can at present imagine. As a result, once sin entered the human scene through the disobedience of Adam and Eve it could spread to all members of the human race, whether or not they were descended from Adam.
        But there is yet a further twist in the tail! Computer modelling has recently been used to investigate the genealogical relationships between humans. The more refined models show remarkable relationships between genealogies. In effect, “these analyses suggest that the genealogies of all living humans overlap in remarkable ways in the recent past. In particular, the most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all present-day humans lived just a few thousand years ago”, according to these models [6]! Moreover, each present-day human has exactly the same set of genealogical ancestors from among those individuals who lived perhaps 6 – 8 thousand years ago and earlier. If, as is implied by the authors, the results of the computer models can really be applied to such separated groups, the historical Adam and Eve would be among the distant common ancestors of all earth’s current inhabitants, as well as of those who have lived within the last 4 – 5 millennia.
        References.
        1. Has the Garden of Eden been located at last? in The Smithsonian (The Smithsonian Institution, New York, May 1987), pp. 128 – 135.
        2. Spanner, D. C. Unpublished Essay on Evolution and Creation. Available on the internet under DC Spanner.
        3. Lewis, C. S. The Problem of Pain (Fontana Books, London & Glasgow 1957), pp. 74 – 76.
        4. Wenham, J. W. The goodness of God (Intervarsity Press, London, 1974), pp. 74 ff.
        5. Kidner, Derek, The Tyndale Commentaries: Genesis (The Tyndale Press, London, 1967), p. 30.
        6. Rohde, Douglas L. T., Steve Olson and Joseph T. Chang. Nature 431,

      • Johan,
        re your Feb 9 comment — I sympathize with your hesitation about jettisoning a “real” Adam of some sort. I have gone through several phases in my thinking. I described why I think that the doctrine of the federal headship of Adam is unbiblical here: https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/2011/08/21/adam-the-fall-and-evolution-christianity-today-and-world-get-it-wrong/ . Oddly, it seems to stem mainly from Augustine’s weakness in reading Greek…

        I was intrigued by the Rohde (2004) paper suggesting a recent common ancestor, so I looked into this a bit. If you assume the whole world has had significant genetic mixing, the math of “pedigree collapse” effect:
        ” In our classic understanding of pedigree, an individual has two parents, four grandparents, and so on, with every successive generation twice as large. Common sense tells us that this exponential growth can’t go on indefinitely. Pedigree collapse is the mathematical explanation for the common sense reality that you can’t have more ancestors than there were people at the time. Inevitably, and frequently, in any pedigree, cousins of some degree marry one another and whenever they do, overlapping segments of their ancestries are duplicated in their progeny’s pedigree. For much of human history, marriages between second or third cousins was the norm. The upshot is that you don’t have to go too far back in within any population to find that everyone who had descendents is an ancestor, often many times over.” [ http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=47939.0 ].

        But this is not as significant as it may at first appear. It does not imply that this common ancestor (and his wife) was the only human existing at their time; he might well have been one of 50,000 individuals at the time, and indeed there may be many other of those ancient individuals that are common ancestors of all of today’s humans. It’s just the way the math works. [ see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2760668/
        J. Lachance , J Theor Biol. 2009 Nov 21;261(2):238-47 ].

        Also, all these theoretical models assume some significant degree of mixing among all the world’s population centers. That does not appear to be the case for the Australian aborigines, for instance:
        “the researchers found that the ancestors of Australian Aboriginals had split from the first modern human populations to leave Africa, 64,000 to 75,000 years ago. ..The discovery] strongly supports the idea that Aborigines were [part of] an early and separate wave of human expansion out of Africa, before the subsequent wave that established Europeans and Asians,” [ http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/news/2011/09/dna-confirms-aboriginal-culture-one-of-earths-oldest/ ]

        Maybe this is not very consequential, but I just wanted to put those ancestry estimates in perspective.
        Best regards…

      • Johan Roos says:

        Thanks for your prompt response. You write in such a gentle, understanding sort of way — I would love to meet you and share ideas with you. But the little seaside town of Port Alfred on the South-East coast of South Africa is a long way from the reat of the world!

        For the sake of brevity I left off things that I should have included in my previous post. I am fully aware that modern humans date from 150 – 200 000 years ago — that does not worry me at all! There are a number of hints in Genesis that the earth was already populated before “my” Adam appeared on the scene. I certainly did not mean that Adam & Eve were our only ancestors. My point — incompletely expressed — was that Adam and Eve, whoever they might have been, were one of many pairs of early ancestors who were ancestral to all humans that have lived from some 5000 years ago. So, whether we like it or not, we are all descended from Adam and Eve, among many other ancestors.

        But I see Adam and Eve as a human couple, living at/near the start of the Neolithic period, who were chosen and invited by God (I don’t know how) to walk in obedience and fellowship with Him as their Father, and to carry the message of God’s revelation to later generations. As representatives of the human race, their failure also becomes our failure; indeed, in their place we ourselves would not have fared any better.

        I need to think a bit more about the question of sin, that was raised in another response to your posts.

    • tom minkler says:

      There are MANY great insights in the OP (thank you for sharing your story) and the comments and replies, so i’m not sure where to put this, but let me share these thoughts:

      This sentence by DC sums up brilliantly the first idea i was going to explore so maybe i can skip that:
      “A literal Adam and Eve does not do away with that question, and, in fact, it complicates it (assigns blame and punishment to us for the deeds of two individuals, when God knew in advance before creating them what they were going to do).”

      In other words a loving God would not create us flawed and then BLAME US FOR IT. Although as noted, we are still “responsible” for our actions, and if there is an overall “rightness” there needs to be “rightness” if you know what i mean. I think in the “end” it will be more about “revealing” than punishment, and our own guilt will provide quite a bit of misery, as we simultaneously see that our criticisms of others have been hypocritical and based on ignorance.

      I was lucky that as a child my dad explained to me that the creation stories of Genesis were allegories, just as you have concluded, and not meant to be literal. I thank God for that often, as i was not left struggling against evolution, etc. However there was still quite bit of literalness to overcome, gradually it has been and is a long journey!

      Modern reduction of the Bible also ruins the concept of “sin,” as in both Hebrew and Greek the word used literally means “miss the mark.” So sin is not just “bad actions” but anything that misses the target of total perfection, any flaw or shortcoming we have – even physical ones, which is why the Pharisees related a man with a skin condition to the sins of him or his parents. Flawed actions result from flawed conditions, as theft, murder, etc. result from conditions within us like insecurity and jealousy, anger, etc. SIN IS A CONDITION WE’RE IN. We’ll never remove a beach by trying to remove each grain of sand individually, right?

      I’ll respond to TRM’s point, regarding “…the natural conclusion that God is holding mankind accountable for sin that he created us with…”
      by suggesting that God is actually NOT holding us accountable, as JESUS HAS PAID FOR EVERY SIN, ONCE AND FOR ALL! (“Unbelief” is also a sin that has been paid for.)
      It’s kinda the whole point, right?

      The whole concept of “substitutionary atonement” (at-one-ment) is another concept i have had to deconstruct, given what i mention above and related to other comments here. We need to look at John 1:1 where it says “In the beginning was the Word…” as the usual conclusion is “The Word is Jesus.” Wait, WHAT? NO! A few verses later it says “The Word became flesh…” OK, NOW it’s Jesus. in other words Jesus is not the Word, but he “embodies” or “expresses it.” Jesus is the expression of God’s expression, or something like that. In other words, the forgiveness of our sins is not something that “happened” or was “accomplished,” but is a pre-existing truth! It is our guilt and our knowing that we are half bad, that separates us from God, because we know we don’t deserve his infinite Love, and the Bible is the story of God trying to explain it, reveal it to us, as well as our journey to understand it. A journey that is not over by any means!

      Thinking about it that way fixes a lot of other inconsistencies for me. The words “son” and “father” are not necessarily literal either, as they are often used non-literally, as in Boanerges (sons of thunder, the thundersons), or Jesus calling the Pharisees “sons of snakes.” A phrase like “I and the father are one” is not necessarily literal either, as it’s a very “zen” (not the religion) type of statement, a when he says “[The Discliples] will be in me, and I in them.”

      This brings us to the last issue i’ll mention, which is that our modern, “western” understanding of the world doesn’t account for the “eastern” nature of ancient Hebrew thought. Part of what is expressed in Genesis is that Adam and Eve ( aka mankind and life), ate from tree of the experience of function and dysfunction, in other words WE divide and cut everything up into largely imaginary opposites like “tall” and “short,” “light” and “dark,” this also includes not only “good” and “evil” but “belief” and “unbelief.” Those are real things, and they are opposites, but each pair is two ends of one thing, and the imaginary line that divides them, also joins them. This is called the :unity of opposites,” right? For instance, there will NEVER be tall without short (unless there is only one object, which then negates the existence of both). And there is really no way that God could draw a line between who is “good” and who is “bad,” i mean He (God is actually genderless of course) COULD, but it would separate people who are infinitely close on the spectrum. Belief and unbelief also can’t be divided into a “heaven” or “hell” because they exist on a continuum, a gradual scale, with no real dividing line.

      “Heaven” is actually a fake word made up in English, as every other language uses a more accurate translation of the Hebrew “shamayim” which is the plural “heavens.” Very different than a single place, right? In Spanish Bibles for instance the word is translated exactly the same as “sky,” which is should actually be “skies” anyway. The word “hell” is also not in the Bible either, as it is a Nordic(?) word used later to translate sheol, Hades (yes Jesus actually uses the word Hades from the Greek myths), or Gehenna, which was an actual burning dumpsite on the outside of town (which has long since burned out, but hasn’t lost its symbolic significance).

      There is SO MUCH to deconstruct, to wean ourselves off the milk we’ve started with. Sorry i hope that wasn’t too much rambling, just trying to describe some of the ways i have had to further deconstruct the “Bible” (Library of Writings). I thought as we “evolve” we would be better able to handle poetry, allegory etc. and broaden our understandings, but why are people so resistant to thinking “bigger”? I think it is partly because people like things to be easy and straightforward, and i really try to be empathetic to that. Also from the beginning but especially during the “dark ages” the Church (another wrong word which should be ecclesia = “the called out”) was very powerful and vested in keeping people fearful, and themselves in control.

      Thank you for enlightening and helping us progress!

      • Tom, I appreciate your very thoughtful comment on the atonement. Lots to think about here. FYI, I am working on an article on how the very earliest church “fathers”, c. 100-200 A.D., viewed the atonement. It’ confirmed some things I thought, but brought up some new (to me) emphases — especially placing, in many cases, more of a stress on the incarnation and on Jesus’s perfect life than on his death. I’ll post this article as a new article on this blog sometime in the next few weeks. Best regards…

  9. Daniel Carroll says:

    The way I would answer this question is this: your question is an age-old question about the presence of suffering and evil, as well as sin, in front of an omniscient and omnipotent God. A literal Adam and Eve does not do away with that question, and, in fact, it complicates it (assigns blame and punishment to us for the deeds of two individuals, when God knew in advance before creating them what they were going to do). We Americans like to hold up human freedom of choice as the answer (we and Adam “choose” to sin), but that logic fails on multiple fronts.

    We are not going to be able to do justice to that question here, but we can draw some outlines. But the Book of Job provides us with clues to the answers, as unsatisfying as they may be. In the book, the devil makes a bet with God that he can turn Job against God by inflicting great suffering upon Job and his family. In the end, Job does not curse God, but he asks the obvious question of “why?”.

    I interpret the Christian doctrine of sin and suffering as one of empirical observation – we observe great evil in the world, much of it, though not all of it, inflicted by humans. The Bible gives us a short allegory in Adam and Eve, but then delivers an expose of a tiny obscure tribal nation as an example of how God can elevate us if we turn to him, but will let us fail if we turn away. Then there is philosophy, poetry, and prophesy, much of examining the nature of human sin. Then there is God’s answer – Jesus and eternal salvation. But, the Bible doesn’t really tell us why sin exists in the first place. Thus, God’s answer in Job is, basically, He’s not going to tell us why. We have to trust Him. It calls us to great humility when attempting to ask questions about the nature of God.

    My opinion is that life is a gift. We can accept that gift and live a life with God. But the state of nature is death and decay, and that is the alternative. Life without God is hell, or eternal death. Life with God is heaven, or eternal life. God gives us the opportunity to truly live and exit the bounds of death, but He will not force it upon us. Physical life is the down payment to that and necessary to give us that opportunity.

  10. Johan Roos says:

    Sorry about the double post. It is not twice as important as your comments!

  11. Pingback: Realistic Expectations for Transitional Fossils | Letters to Creationists

  12. Terry says:

    I very much like Daniel’s idea that, prefiguring the incarnation of God’s Word in Christ, God’s word in scripture is incarnated into the humanity of his chosen people through his chosen biblical scribes without doing violence to their literary culture, their language, their recourse to narrative and symbolism to explore religious themes, the cosmographic imagery that was part of their mental furniture, etc. As 2 Tim 3:16-17 teaches, the purpose of scripture is to teach how to be good followers of Christ, not science, nor even history as we moderns understand it unless that history is itself at the heart of the message, e.g the life, passion, death, resurrection and ascension of Our Lord. God’s love letter is brought to us in a cultural envelope and it is an error to insist that this envelope is covered by the inerrancy to be found in its redemption message. That is to venerate the envelope as much as the letter it contains.

    To me, this incarnational idea helps me come to terms with difficult passages in the OT (esp. Genesis and Exodus) that present God in very anthropomorphic terms as experiencing emotions such as vengeful anger when he severely punishes the Israelites for their transgressions (e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf) or instructs them to wipe out their enemies, including women and children (e.g. Joshua’s sacking of the city of Jericho). I’ve read Paul Copan’s interview with Lee Strobel about his book ‘Is God a Moral Monster?’, and while I buy into his arguments to some extent, they still leave me with an uncomfortable feeling that he hasn’t found a complete answer.

    As a Catholic, I believe in my Church’s definition of inspiration (in The Catechism of the Catholic Church) which certainly emphasises the humanity of the inspired authors and allows them to write in the literary genre of their time, but insists nevertheless that they only wrote what God wanted them to write. I feel I would like to go further and say that these writers were inspired to record their own interpretation of historical events and to attribute to God their own sense of justice even to putting words in his mouth. All this was part of a very gradual evolution of God’s message over many centuries which only reached its fulfilment in the gospel of Jesus. How else to explain un-Christlike responses either attributed to God or implying his approval. A troubling example of the latter is found at the end of Psalm 137 where the psalmist, in his desire to pay back the Babylonians for their cruelty, invokes a blessing on anyone “who seizes your babies and shatters them against a rock.” Did God inspire this sentiment or only the harsh honesty with which the psalmist expresses his own feelings. I incline strongly towards the latter.

    I would love to hear what you Scott or your many wise bloggers think about this.

  13. Daniel Carroll says:

    On Psalm 137, I read it as a lament, of which there are many in the Bible. Unfortunately, modern US culture (where I live) tries to hide sorrow and pretend it doesn’t exist, or worse, “fix it”. The psalmist is expressing his anguish in visceral terms. It is a very human emotion to desire harm to those who harm us, and indeed is often part of the grieving process. To me, the inspiration in this passage is to grant us the rights to grieve and cry out when we suffer, and God accepts our emotion. In fact, it is in the puritanical tradition to attribute sinfulness to “bad” emotions or “bad” thoughts (which is not entirely wrong, either). Acting on those desires, and not moving towards reconciliation, is different, however. And that is where the Bible ultimately culminates – grace and forgiveness, because none of us are really “innocent”.

    On the OT genocides, there is a lot of context that gets lost in translation. Our modern “Christianized” concept of war separates out “innocents” from “combatants” and imposes rules upon how to conduct warfare (rules that are often/usually broken). In the ancient world, nothing any society did was done without the blessing and consultation of the gods. War was ritualistic and religious almost by definition. Further, the “cities” that were attacked were not cities in the modern sense, as a small fraction of the population lived in cities. Cities were where rulers, religious leaders, and armies lived, were fortified, and/or were trading posts. So attacking, destroying and capturing/massacring the inhabitants was highly symbolic and strategically important to taking control of the land (whether they captured or massacred depended up the nature of the conquest and the strategy of the conqueror). So when the Romans captured Jerusalem in AD70, they leveled the city and massacred the inhabitants, sending a message to all who dared oppose the Emperor. And Jerusalem at that time likely had a large population. The US dropped the H-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, though that was not religiously motivated, and while controversial, most would not ascribe a genocidal motivation for that act. Context is important.

    I’m not really a historian, and a historian might be able to offer a richer and more accurate perspective.

    The answers to why God allows suffering and savagery are not usually very satisfying. I often point to Job, and to a lesser extent Ecclesiastes. In Job, God basically says that He knows the answer and there is an answer, but that we are not mature enough to handle that answer. Instead, we must trust Him.

    Anyway, that’s my two cents.

    • Daniel,
      You make a number of very helpful points here. I’m guessing for most folks in the Mid East pre-Christian, it would not occur to them to be shocked by the massacres in the OT. Alexander the Great wiped out and leveled whole cities (Thebes, Tyre) that opposed him — made them disappear. Rome wiped out Carthage at the end of the Punic wars. Just business. Christian ethics have since permeated our culture, so even nonbelievers who have no rigorous logical foundation for opposing genocide know in their hearts (which are shaped by our culture) that it is wrong.

      Even today, in swathes of the Middle East and Africa, to massacre or drive out whole populations is seen as normal operating procedure.

      Agreed that there is an element of mystery we need to accept. At least in New Testament times, the promise of a wonderful afterlife in the presence of God is made very explicit. That puts a whole different perspective on the sufferings and injustice in this life. It’s hard to imagine living in OT times when it seems like folks believed that after death the best you could hope for was some shadowy underworld existence.

    • Johan Roos says:

      This is hardly a “reply” — just a word of thanks for an interesting take on some moral problems in scripture, and for some very thought-provoking comments and insights that I still need to digest properly.

  14. Terry says:

    Thank you, Daniel and Scott for your responses.

    My focus in raising this is how God’s inspiration of scripture (one of the key themes in my correspondence with a YE creationist) plays out in difficult passages. For example, the first city Joshua encountered on crossing the Jordan was Jericho. There is no hint that Jericho was poised to attack the new arrivals, but it obviously posed a serious threat and even without a strong nudge from Yahweh, Joshua would have needed to consider what we would call a preemptive strike. But the text suggests that God (who of course knew what was brewing in the city in response to the Israelite incursion into its territory) took the initiative and like a military commander laid out the strategy Joshua was to pursue to breach the city walls. When they fell at the end of seven days of the Israelites marching around the city, it is presented in scripture as God’s deed, one that exposed the city to the sacking that duly took place. Although it was Joshua who ordered the slaughter of all inhabitants, men and women, young and old, and livestock, only sparing Rahab’s household, God’s full endorsement of such deeds seems implicit in the text.

    This is but one example of many, and all of them are in stark contrast to the comparatively trivial one act of violence attributed to Jesus when he drove the money changers out of the temple forecourt with a whip. Oral traditions of what transpired throughout the Mosaic and Joshua periods were handed down until maybe many centuries later inspired scribes fashioned them into the narrative we can now read. Paul Copan talks of hyperbole as an OT characteristic, so the reality of Israelite conquests may have been much less harsh than it appears, but a literalist interpretation would hold that this is history and it happened exactly as the text says.

    Where Copan makes me slightly uneasy is in his appeal to God’s justice visiting retribution on corrupt Canaanite societies which has echoes of the angels’ slaughter of the Egyptians first-born sons or even earlier his cleansing of the whole earth by flood with the exception of Noah’s household (even though I believe this was a regional flood). Perhaps its just 21st century squeamishness in someone saturated in the Christian ethic of loving your enemies and doing good to those who hate you, but my instinct is to believe that God of the OT was the same as the God of love we see incarnated in Jesus and to water down God’s inspiration here by saying that his scribes were allowed to attribute to God what we might attribute to men.

    Any thought?

  15. Daniel Carroll says:

    I agree that this passage presents a much more difficult problem for the Biblical literalists, though often their answer is some form of Dispensationalism: God had a different relationship with the Israelites than He has with Christians. I lean Calvinist, so I believe that the Cross is the central act of God, and dispute the notion that He was somehow different in the OT than in the NT. But also, I am not sure I buy the theory that OT stories (after Moses) were written and/or edited centuries after the fact, but that is another debate entirely.

    In the OT times, every event was attributed to God and God’s purposes. They saw God everywhere and in everything. Granted, if you are serious about God’s sovereignty, then nothing happens outside of his divine provenance. Even death, and even war. And again, in an important sense, that is not far from the truth. So this question brings up a number of issues: does God sanction violence and war? how about genocide? death? suffering? It sure seems like he does, at least in these specific circumstances. And honestly, I wrestle with these questions, because I am biased towards pacifism. Maybe these passages teaches that pacifism is wrong and war is sometimes called for.

    But my points about context were really just to illustrate the notion that there are a lot of things we don’t know about the specific circumstances and about God’s higher purpose in them. As God commanded Job, we too should approach these kinds of questions with a deep humility, because by demanding answers, we are demanding that we too should possess the knowledge of good and evil.

  16. Terry, Daniel,
    Some hard-core theological types point out that no one is really innocent, even children, so for God to countenance the unnaturally early death of some Canaanites was not an unjust act. All people of all ages at all times are guilty of not giving the Creator the honor and obedience due Him. So none of us *deserve* a long, pleasant life now or in eternity, so we all deserve to be killed, so it was bizarre or unjust for the Canaanities to be killed. What is shocking is that some folks, incuding us, have been spared, So we should be thanking God for mercy on some or most people, instead of complaining that some minority of humans are killed young. [I’m not saying this completely satisfies me, just that it is an approach].

    It’s interesting this topic of seemingly nasty OT God arises here – – – for the past few weeks I have been teaching a small class at church on the early church Fathers [ see here for sample ten-page sample https://letterstocreationists.wordpress.com/church-fathers/ ]. One of the earlier big heresies that the mainstream “catholic” (= all big churches in Mediterranean basic) church had to deal with was Marcionism. Marcion was a Christian from Pontus, up on the Black Sea. Presumably Greek. Knew Jesus and his Father to be loving, merciful, etc. When he read the OT, Marcion concluded that this had to be an entirely different God- – limited knowledge, mean, etc. So Tertullian in North Africa c. 200 A.D. wrote a long tract against Marcion. Tertullian had to wrestle with these issues. He , of course, was aware of OT / NT differences, but also claimed that were organically connected. He used metaphors like a seed growing into a plant, where there are differences between seed and plant.

    I don’t claim to have all the answers, and, yes, I am not sure on defending everything in the OT. I’ll just add two observations to the conversation here.
    ( 1) The perspective of eternity is clear in NT, and colors everything. Paul could agree that this life, by itself, was unfair and not worth following Chirst for. But this is a blink of an eye compared to eternity, so he could say that all the sufferings (and injustice) of this life do not compare.

    (2) The NT is not 100% warm fuzzies. Jesus was compassionate and merciful to anyone who was humble, and did not seem to endorse physical violence as a rule, but he ripped into the self-righteous and the oppressors, threatening them with hellfire. And foretold the doom of Jerusalem (Mat 24) in fine OT style.

    And maybe one other thing, Paul and Hebrews treat the events as “shadows” of the real deal in Christ. I think that means that things that were physically acted out in NT foreshadow or illustrate spriritual transactions in NT. There will be a final judgement which will be as severe as anything in the OT. But that illustrates the gravity of the problem that impelled the Son to come and take human form and fully enter into our world, including betrayal, suffering, and death.

  17. Johan Roos says:

    The razing of towns and villages by Joshua and Co. is indeed a very real moral problem. But I note that NOT doing this caused numerous problems for these “new settlers” in Canaan in generations to come, both in terms of safety and security, and also in terms of their religious practice as a result of syncretism and the apostasy into which the Israelites fell.

  18. Terry says:

    I’m grateful for all your thoughts. I’ve been working up a reply to my YE correspondent over the past few days and so have only just caught up with the above. At one point my YE contact made reference to Darwin’s scepticism about OT incidents like the Tower of Babel at the start of Gen 11. Here God is portrayed as sowing language confusion among the tower builders because he was worried that nothing would be beyond them if he didn’t, a typically anthropomorphic OT view of the way God’s mind works. In reply I said:

    “The portrayal of God here is extremely anthropomorphic, as it is when he is portrayed as a belligerent deity who cared nothing for those who would be an obstacle to Israel’s possession of the Promised Land. Darwin doubtless had in mind incidents such as Joshua’s destruction of Jericho, presented in the Bible as being at Yahweh’s command and in accordance with his plan. Darwin would have known of the outcome: “They enforced the curse of destruction on everyone in the city: men and women, young and old, including the oxen, the sheep and the donkeys, slaughtering them all.” (Joshua 6:21)

    “As an aside, I can only take this and other passages in which biblical scribes present us with a God willing to destroy anyone in Israel’s path as the earliest brushstrokes in God’s self-portrait, a sketchy and unattractive outline on a canvas that over many centuries God would work on and refine until one of his prophets could write: “This is what Yahweh ask of you, only this; that you act justly, that you love tenderly, that you walk humbly with your God.” (Micah 6:8) Of course, the final masterpiece was only completed by the One who was perfect image of the Father, Jesus himself.”

    Earlier I had said this: “The God of the OT is the same as that of the NT, but the human perspective reflected in scripture radically shifts from that of Moses leading a rebellious and fickle tribe into the desert via prophets and psalmists addressing Israel before, during, and after the exile to the One delivering the Sermon on the Mount. Everything that preceded Jesus must be interpreted in the light of his gospel.”

    This is where I come closest to Daniel’s incarnational concept of inspiration. I believe that almighty God is immeasurably more subtle than any of us give him credit for, and that he worked on the human material within the primitive tribe he chose, using their culture and language and instinct to ascribe events and outcomes to him in order to introduce an evolving divine message of redemptive power into their literature.

    I don’t feel I’m there yet, but I’m concerned that YE literalism doesn’t do anything to answer New Atheist attacks on Yahweh, and this has prompted me to try to deepen my understanding of divine/human balance in holy scripture.

  19. Daniel Carroll says:

    I don’t have a lot to add, only to note that the answers to these questions are not going to come in neat packages. Over the years I have had a number of friends who have difficulty with moral and logical ambiguity with respect to their faith. Unfortunately, the world we live in is chaotic and ambiguous, and our God is mysterious. For some reason, that does not challenge my faith, because I have no expectation of getting the “right” answer to my questions or having everything tied up in neat logical bows.

    While the Bible gives us stories that directly challenge our notion of morality with respect to God, it really points to the broader questions of suffering and death in light of a good God. However, the incarnational concept of inspiration not only allows that ambiguity and paradox that clearly exists, it expects it and predicts it (and a good theory is one that makes good predictions). The literal or direct concepts of inspiration do not make room for ambiguity and paradox – it is what the text says it is (so if Genesis 1 says that there is a physical dome in the sky called the firmament holding back the waters above …). In that sense, I think the incarnational view is a much higher view of scripture than the literal view, because, frankly, the literal view is forced to ignore or rationalize these questions (and often ignores parts of scripture that don’t fit the narrative).

    In my experience, atheists (new and old) most often attack the literal notions, and often don’t can’t deal with the mystery or the ambiguity. Indeed, atheists call me a liberal far more readily than my evangelical friends. They would much rather paint YE Christians as children living in a fantasy land.

  20. Hi guys, on the subject of coming to grips with OT unpleasantness, I saw this book recommended: Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God – by Paul Copan . I have not read it myself. From the reviews of it, it seems to touch on many of the points that you (Daniel, Terry, Johan) have mentioned above.
    For instance, here is an excerpt of one Amazon review:

    Copan divides his work into four sections. Part 1 identifies the New Atheists and outlines their critique of God. Part 2 responds to critiques of God’s character that revolve around his desire for the praise of his people, his “jealousy” for their fidelity, and his command to Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice. Part 3 tackles what Dawkins calls the Bible’s “ubiquitous weirdness” and those passages he sees as morally monstrous. This section, the book’s longest, deals with kosher laws, criminal punishments, relationships between the sexes, slavery, the killing of the Canaanites particularly, and the so-called “religious roots” of violence generally. Part 4 concludes the book by questioning whether atheism can provide a foundation for morality and by pointing to Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

    Copan’s response to the New Atheists utilizes the following types of arguments:

    First, he situates the Old Testament narratives and laws within the “redemptive movement of Scripture.” As a Christian, Copan reads the Bible as a story with a beginning, middle, and end. The beginning is an unsullied creation, and the end is Jesus Christ. The historical and legal elements of the Old Testament take place in the middle, falling short of God’s creational ideals and in need of Jesus Christ’s redemptive work. Far from being “God’s timeless wisdom,” Copan argues, much of the Old Testament is “inferior and provisional,” offering “incremental steps toward the ideal.”

    Second, Copan situates the Old Testament within its historical context, pointing out how its legal codes are often a measurable improvement on the contemporaneous legal codes of other ancient near eastern societies. Criminal punishments are less severe, relationships between the sexes are fairer to women, slavery is more strictly regulated, and warfare is less savage.

    Third, regarding difficult Old Testament narratives, Copan points out that narration does not imply endorsement. Jacob married two women and used their maidservants as concubines, but this does not imply divine endorsement. Jephthah sacrificed his daughter because of a rash vow, but his action did not merit divine approval. Many New Atheist critiques of Old Testament narratives commit what Copan calls “the `is-ought’ fallacy.”

    Fourth, regarding difficult Old Testament laws, Copan focuses on their context and their limited application. Take Deuteronomy 20:16-18, for example–where God commanded the Israelites to “utterly destroy…the Hittite, the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite.” Copan points out several things worth keeping in mind.

    * In issuing this commandment, God uses Israel as an agent of judgment against the Canaanites, whom God is judging for their wickedness.
    * In addition to a concern for justice, God’s concern is religious: Unless the Canaanites are destroyed, they will corrupt the monotheistic faith and practice of Israel.
    * This commandment, and others like it, has limited application to the initial entry of Israel into the Promised Land. It is not used as justification for Israel’s wars once they are established in the land.
    * The commandment is not racially or ethnically motivated, since other passages of Scripture promise a similar judgment to Israel if she is disobedient to God and since Israel itself was a multi-ethnic host.
    * The narratives describing the fulfillment of this commandment use “ancient near eastern exaggeration rhetoric,” meaning that the descriptions of total killing are not literally true and would not have been understood to be literally true by Israel or her contemporaries.
    * The targeted cities are best understood as military outposts rather than non-combatant urban areas.
    * Canaanites could escape divine judgment by joining Israel (as did Rahab and her household).
    * Although some verses in Joshua describe the total destruction of the Canaanites after Israel’s entry into the Promised Land, other verses describe their continued presence. So, the Bible’s narrative portrayal of Israel’s “conquest” is itself ambivalent.
    * * * * * ** * * ** * *** * * * * * ** * * * * * *

    But on atheists attacking these passages — what are they basing their moral judgments on? If they are, as they claim, nothing more than a collection of molecules, how can their moral objections be taken seriously?
    If God gives life, for a time, to people (all people) who did nothing to deserve life, who can object if He ends some peoples’ lives sooner than others? For humans to do that of their own authority is murder and massacre, but God is God. He does not owe anyone a long, healthy life. (which sticks in the craws of unbelievers …)

    If they want to try to mount a logical argument, they might cede the point above, but then try to find a contradiction between the gentle Jesus and the thundering Jahweh of the OT. The problems here are that Jesus saw himself in harmony and continuity with “that” God, and (as I noted above) Jesus was not 100% meek and mild.

    re Tower of Babel — I don’t know, but it seems to me that any detail of Genesis 1-11 that we can check against history or science does not hold up, so I don’t have much energy for trying to justify the literal reading of that. Just my opinion.

    • Zem says:

      This is a very enjoyable blog and I’m impressed with the research you did it on various topics.
      – but it saddens me that apparently, ETHICS (that is, philosophy of ethics as an area of study) was not one of them.

      When I found your posts on evolutionary biology or Bible studies I felt profound respect as here was someone who goes above and beyond duty to educate himself and form an opinion that as honest to facts as possible.

      How is it possible, then, that you fall back on the same naive logic that you object to in some creationists when it comes to ethics? “what are atheists basing their moral judgments on?” – is it possible that a person of your intelligence never was exposed to sociology or law to learn how moral codes and community rules come about?
      Or that their purpose is to make peaceful coexistence and more advanced cooperation and society possible? Or not realize that morals only have meaning within a human context?

      I realize the “how can a collection of molecules have morals” bit is meant as a jab at materialism, but it sounds like irrelevant nonsense to me. You seem to be questioning that molecules can make up an intelligent creature that can make moral decisions Yet, you know for a fact that you are one of those – in fact, the ONLY type of creature you know that can do that is molecule-based. So the source of this ridicule does not seem to make sense at all.

    • Zem,

      As you point out, human communities typically operate according to some sort of moral code, which gives predictability to social interactions. In some cases we can study how those moral codes developed over time. Sometimes they evolved through mutual consensus. Sometimes they were simply imposed from above by whoever had the power to do so. This study of existing moral codes is the domain of descriptive ethics.

      What I was addressing was normative ethics, which deals with standards for the rightness or wrongness of actions. My point was that within atheistic materialism there can be no basis for judging anything as actually right or wrong. Hume demonstrated long ago that you cannot logically derive an “ought” from an “is”. Clear-thinking and existentially courageous atheists acknowledge this. See, for instance, this brief article by atheist blogger Paul Braterman, and links therein:
      https://paulbraterman.wordpress.com/2015/04/10/on-the-foundations-of-morality/ .

      Less-clear-thinking atheists spill lots of ink trying to deny this. But any system of morality they propose, if you dig all the way down, rests on some assertion that is merely an emotional preference which cannot be justified from physical observations. For instance, you might argue (and I would agree) that society will be more pleasant if we all agree to keep our promises and to refrain from physical violence. However, if a dictator arose who regarded a treaty as merely a scrap of paper and who resorted to violence to gain his ends, there is no objective fact of science from which you could prove to him that his actions were incorrect.

      Thus, when an atheist says, “It was immoral for God to tell the Israelites to kill the Canaanites”, this statement really means, “That contravenes my emotional preferences, and the emotional preferences of many other people”, not “This command violates an objective moral standard.” That was the context of my statements above.

      I hope this clarifies. Best regards…

      • Zem says:

        I have to say that I am very disappointed. How does that not make you essentially a “moral creationist”? (one who places a holy book before reason when it comes to ethics, same as a creationist places a holy book before reason when it comes to nature.)
        Your approach to ethics is the same as theirs it to nature. You seem to have limited experience with other worldviews, yet you hand out faulty advice about them. Not only do you misrepresent seculars, but you mislead your friends too, when you give them ‘ammo’ that will only make them the target of ridicule.

        “How can there be objective morality without god?” is just as bad a statement as “If we came from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys?” – full of miscomprehensions only a clueless speaker wouldn’t notice. It seems to misuse “objective” and “morality” – for handing over responsibility for proving morals to a SUBJECTIVE authority is anything but-, it makes an unjustified leap from generic unprovables to antropomorphized unprovables, and shows complete ignorance about the complex efforts how objectivity and morality are actually attained.

        We should have you on the side of dispelling popular nonsense, not spreading it.

        A simple Wiki search on “Normative ethics” would have showed you many of the basic approaches – nearly all of which are unrelated to emotional preference -, even a short response to the “ought” argument.
        “Freethinkers” work very hard thorough their lives to find out what basic “goods” there are and through knowledge-based approach how these are best approached, and try to contribute to the culltural momentum to get these accepted and spread and developed further.
        Yet you insist that this is “spilling ink”, and low-effort submission to a subjective authority’s inflexible moral standard should be held higher.
        It is a bastardization of how true objective truth actually manifests.

        I’m not sure you realize how ignorant “atheists at the core only base their morals on emotional preference” sounds.

        Braterman as a source: He immediately contradicts himself, falsely attrubutes problems to specific schools, and floats he is dangerously close to lazy and anti-reason subjective relativism.
        If this is how you define “courageous and clear-thinking” (which I must suspect simply means “matches up with my preconceived notion of atheists”), I am NOT impressed.

        If you wanted to grace someone with those titles, Alex Rosenberg’s Opinionator that he links to is pretty good. Though in the end his article only covers basics.

        Would you be interested in talking more? From only this much, I can’t assess whether I understood what you say correctly. Nor do I want to litter your page with comments. 🙂
        I’m sure it would be educational for me, too.
        I don’t mind what religion you hold as long as you can justify it for yourself, but this kind of limited view about how others strive for morals will not stand.

      • Zem,
        I think we need to define what we mean by “objective basis for morality”. I mean by this “a basis for moral values that is not, at its root, merely subjective opinion”. RationalWiki http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Objective_morality offers this definition:
        “Objective morality is the idea that a certain system of ethics or set of moral judgments is not just true according to a person’s subjective opinion, but factually true.” This is the way in which most people would understand “objective morality” or “objective basis for morality”.

        You yourself appear to recognize this definition, since in one of your comments on Paul Braterman’s blog you referred to “objective morality” as “something independent from humans and built into the universe.”

        It is objective morality in this sense which cannot be derived from a naturalistic universe. RationalWiki notes that, “ arguably, no objective source of morality has ever been confirmed, nor have any a priori proofs been offered to the effect that morality is anything other than subjective.” And you acknowledged that “this very suggestion [of objective morality] is a meaningless concept” for an atheist in a naturalistic universe. I agree with that.

        New Atheists like Sam Harris propose certain moral values as being self-evidently valid, such as “maximizing the well-being of conscious creatures”. Since we humans are conscious creatures, of course this self-interested proposal is emotionally appealing to us. But as Braterman (following Malik) correctly points out, this proposed moral value is simply a personal opinion, not some law of nature, and also that this seemingly-humane principle could be used to justify cruel mistreatment of an individual in order to benefit a larger number of people.

        Braterman in his article discusses Kenan Malik’s The Quest for a Moral Compass. I have not read this book myself, but it is a survey of moral philosophy across the ages and across the globe. So many ages and cultures, so many moral views, with some commonalities and many differences. The reviews and quotes I have seen from this book indicate that Malik did not find any basis for an objective, universal ethic. Rather, different ethics arise out of different cultural situations and assumptions (e.g. “Moral questions may not have objective answers but they do have rational ones, answers that are rooted in a rationality that emerges out of social need”).

        I looked at the Alex Rosenburg article you noted. That article certainly does not support the notion of objective moral values. On the contrary, Roseburg systematically goes through various proposed secular bases of morals, and ruthlessly tears them all down and stomps on them.

        Thus, my statements that “Within atheistic materialism there can be no basis for judging anything as actually right or wrong” and “But any system of morality they propose, if you dig all the way down, rests on some assertion that is merely an emotional preference which cannot be justified from physical observations” are merely agreeing with author Malik and with Professors Braterman and Rosenburg in that naturalism cannot furnish an objective morality. To my knowledge, these men are all atheists, so they cannot be accused of having religious motives to make naturalism look bad. As Sartre put it, “Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist.” Thus there is no possibility within atheism to judge anything, whether genocide or an act of kindness, as factually, objectively right or wrong, good or evil.

        ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
        All that said, I agree with you that objective thinking about moral issues is possible even within a naturalistic worldview. After we choose which core values are most emotionally pleasing to us, we can certainly discuss the logical generation of derivative values, and how to most effectively achieve these goals, and how to persuade others to take our point of view. All this subsequent discussion can, in principle, be objective. So in this limited sense, there can be “objective” moral reasoning within naturalism. But it is well to not confuse that with the normal understanding of “objective morality”.

        Re your: “ ‘Freethinker’ work very hard thorough their lives to find out what basic ‘goods’ there are and through knowledge-based approach how these are best approached, and try to contribute to the culltural momentum to get these accepted and spread and developed further. “
        I do not disparage this enterprise. I applaud these efforts, as I believe they do help make the world a better place. As a “conscious being” I am grateful for other people agreeing to maximize the comfort of conscious beings. My comment about “spilling ink” was directed specifically to the notion that these basic ‘goods’ are logically deducible from the physical universe. There is a difference between the (potentially verifiable) claim that “most people would feel better if we all always behaved in way X”, and the non-objective claim that “we all always OUGHT to behave in way X” or “it is self-evident that we all always ought to behave in way X”.

        And (back to descriptive ethics), I agree that in practice people do choose certain values and do choose actions which help attain these goals, with or without God. So again, I do not dispute that atheists can and do perform ethical reasoning. My original, brief remark on this subject, which triggered your comments, was directed at the origin of the values from which this reasoning proceeds.

        It was courteous of you to inquire whether I want to prolong this discussion. Honestly, it is not a subject that particularly interests me. I have tried to respond to the key points you brought up, but do not have enthusiasm for debating the merits of the many, competing ethical philosophical proposals out there. If you want to provide a widely-applicable, practical example of an “ought” which is logically derived from physical observations, i.e. is not at some point merely a subjective opinion or circular reasoning or cultural norm, I would be interested in seeing that.
        Cheers…

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  25. Zem says:

    Firstly, thank you for hearing me out. If anything, I appreciate a honest conversation.

    The main point that I was trying to get across was that any critique you draw against creationism above is equally applicable to morality.

    I propose that you should be able to explain by what criterion is morality, being a form of knowledge, gets separated from other types of knowledge that justifies this special treatment. When you say that science is a good way to deduce things EXCEPT FOR THIS BIT, what is it that makes the “this bit” different?

    In other words, if the creationist can reject the entire body of biology based on the reasoning that it is knowledge that “does not come from god”, then how is your stance that any morality which is not god-validated is negligible different and how are you in a position to critique their stance?

    “Hume proved…you cannot logically derive an “ought” from an “is”. ”

    Hume did not prove anything but rather made a comment against how his contemporaries acted; in particular Hume argues against naturalistic arguments (such as the ones in Paley’s works, the idea of a Great Chain of Being etc.) and specifically against the use of the state of nature as a standard for politics.

    Anyway,perhaps it’d be best if I tried to draw up a draft of my own personal moral cod, even though I’ll have to heavily shorten it so that I do not write a damn novel.

    1. that the existence of the mind and the world AS THEY ARE are axiomatic, & not because they couldn’t be different, but because they aren’t;
    that consciousness is a model-maker which gains knowledge by comparing its models against the internal reality/the mental landscape;
    yet no one model can be preferred over another except by better match to the internal reality.
    (& that internal is different from the external reality which we separate from it after acknowledging other minds as per 3,)

    2. the evolutionary principle;
    That all action comes from a FUNDAMENTAL LACK OF CHOICE, where the only choice is between 1. annihilation and 2. survival (ie. life or death)
    Thus we derive an “ought” from an “is” because a position of “ought NOT to be” leads to the position eliminating itself, leaving only the “ought to be”.

    3. sympathy; the idea that other minds & viewpoints are real and that no single viewpoint is superior (and thus one can project to and feel oneness with the universe); however that it is OK to be preferential to viewpoints closest to one’s own through the principle of subsidiarity; and that it is one of the criteria of objectivity to entertain as many viewpoints as possible.

    4.the social contract
    That people can benefit by agreeing on rules between each other; that these agreed-on rules are what we call morals; that these rules can be objectively confirmed as per 1.
    ie. That society acts a carrier of knowledge and information; that you yourself only have most knowledge because previous generations prepared it and passed it on.

    & also that ALL the -isms of normative ethics can simultaneously and non-exclusively concluded from the above 4, including:
    – (classical) utilitarianism (that if you act, you must act with maximum effectiveness
    – responsibility (ie. the realization that I am the cause of the consequences of my actions)
    etc.

    To repeat, I claim that words like should, ought, have to, need to, must – all convey the presence of a binding force. I argue that this unmentioned binding force is the pressure of the objective reality and the fundamental dilemma described in 1. – that our only true choice is between putting our mind closer to the danger of perishing, or not.

    Other things I claim are that:
    – any system of logic is justified to break its own rules if following them would bring the entire system to an end. I can be justified to not explore a “dead end” from which there is no return.
    – that meaning is human-made https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning-making and ideas become “true” by virtue of survival.
    – that we can trace this process of elimination by realizing that we already exclude for no reason moral ideas that:
    1.humans are unable to concieve or achieve
    2. all moral truths that could not survive to the present (eg. by causing the death of their carriers)
    – that Christianity’s rise to becoming also had to with the fact that it 1. it could be used as the basis of a social order 2. that it could spread values withou needing to explain why to follow them in detail (some of which were already objectively proven to be true by the above process) 3. that it preached obedience to kings; 4. because its very essence is based on wishful and outrageous promises (eternal life, god’s love etc.).

    I argue that Christianity could not have survived to the present day if it did NOT preach what people wanted to hear; but then how can it be true except by the standard I described above?

    “objective”
    We probably have different definitions of the word.

    Objectivity is not THIS:
    1. pick a subjective authority 2. argue that it is a REALLY good authority 3. declare to have attained objectivity.

    “Objectivity” is achieved by
    1. comparing different viewpoints.
    2. repeated testing against the internal reality, and eliminating biases and inferior models (instincts, outdated information, etc,)

    I argue that we have two different types of truths, ie. “facts” (is-es, or naturalistic knowledge) and “values” (oughts or humanistic knowledge) and that objectivity has a different meaning for the two of them; that values are primarily drawn from 1. and facts from 2. but must ultimately incorporate both.

    “normative ethics/descriptive ethics”
    I think you’re using these words wrong. Normative/descriptive/meta-ethics are different approaches to the same end, not separate domains of knowledge.
    Normative ethics, as the name suggests, does this by identifying standards or “norms” by which ethical action may be evaluated.
    “divine revelation” or “X religious tradition” can be used as norms, but they are stil only some norms among many.
    “Normative ethics does not have the kind of “transcendental ethics” meaning that you seem to assign to them.

    Frankly, it seems to me like you’ve been changing the definition of “morality” into a more limited one in order to dismiss other approaches as “not really morality”.
    But once you have limited the definition of “morality” to “what comes from god”, what does the argument become other than “Morals can only come from god. Why? Because we define morals as those values which come from god.” ie. a tautology.

    “Within atheistic materialism there can be no basis for judging anything as actually right or wrong.”

    Please define what qualifies as “actually”.

    What is the standard that you measure it by?
    Does it mean that it is rewarded by some higher power? Then it begs the question.
    Does it come from comparison with objective reality? Then it is the same as regular knowledge.
    (The type you claimed was impossible.)
    Does it mean it satisfies EVERY possible definition? That is impossible.

    “and also that this seemingly-humane principle could be used to justify cruel mistreatment of an individual in order to benefit a larger number of people.”

    See, after I berated Braterman so thoroughly for the same misattribution, it is inexcusable for you to just go and repeat the same accusation here.

    The dilemma of trade-offs arises in EVERY system that incorporates utility..which in practice means that it arises in every system that can be applied to reality, because no complex system where conflict of interest can occur can be non-utilitarian.
    Any system you can propose

    To attribute this property to just one system is false and deceptive.

    However, I CAN actually demonstrate a solution that comes from the same perspective.
    Consider eg.:
    1. I can increase my utility by trading X for Y.
    2. I can leave Y alone. (this is not possible in every scenarios as some call for immediate action!)
    3. hence, since the trade would PERMANENTLY remove my ability to achieve 100% utility, I will not make it.

    In practice we usually answer the dilemma of trade-offs it by adopting hybrid systems. Ie. strict rules for harsher crimes that declare that some crimes are always wrong (though we DO recognize mitigating factors/extenuating circumstances), but more freedom to make trades with lighter offences.

    Note that you can’t fundamentally solve the utilitarian dilemma.
    For example, in a choice of the torture of a terrorist to reveal the location of the bomb that’ll kill 10 people, we accept the death of the 10 people as a cost of being able to have an absolute rule of “torture is always wrong”.
    Hence, contrary what you implied, the absolute rule is definitely the bigger moral monster.

    (If there was more space I’d love to go into how “rights” work – eg. you must consider how they are enforced; that lack of 100% accuracy will always mean that people right ABOVE them get away with crimes and right BELOW them get innocently hurt; etc.)

    I also find this one argument peculiar:

    “If God gives life, for a time, to people (all people) who did nothing to deserve life, who can object if He ends some peoples’ lives sooner than others?”

    Would you then also concede to this argument: a child did nothing to deserve life.* It exists solely because of the will of her parents, Therefore, it is OK for parents to kill a child. (They only take back what was given.)

    (*What a shit argument this is anyway – how could something possibly earn life BEFORE coming into existence? xD On the other hand, I could see a possible moral standard that defines life’s goal as living up one’s full potential and retroactively “earning” one’s existence.)

    We generally understand the mad scientist’s dilemma: that once you’ve created life, even by accident, it is morally difficult to destroy it.

    “New atheists say etc.”
    I’m European. 🙂 I feel little reason to follow whatever spokesperson you can get over there. :p

    “After we choose which core values are most emotionally pleasing to us, we can discuss the logical generation of derivative values”
    I’ll be honest, this is the first time I hear of a moral system that defines itself like this. Who told you this? I accept the possibility, but historically most moral systems attempted to define themselves through pure reason.
    You may be able to argue that it is not good logic, that it IS logic

    At the very least you should grant your opponent this much.
    After all, I may have the opinion that ontological proofs are shit logic (the worst), but I never for a moment question that they ARE logic.

    Also, clarification please – by “emotion” do you mean “instinct”? (Not emotion that merely acts to help thought along and is compatible with cold reason.)

    This is why I mentioned it on Baterman’s blog that evolutionary thought had, in a sense, “redeemed” instincts, because if we view them as things to have been created through selective pressure (the same bashing things against objective reality that we use to generate knowledge), then they deserve at least some degree of respect and may contain some hint of truth.

    And in practice it is quite apparent that instincts are training wheels that guide you towards an action that you can later rationally prove, removing the need (eg. You feel hunger before you learn you need to eat or your could starve.)

    Welp I tried to give some sort of picture, maybe it just came out as a mess. Anyway I reject the notion that instinct (aka emotional preference) plays any important role for me instead of reason, except perhaps as a pragmatic social consideration. Even the fundamental unprovable of “is existence better than non-existence” is resolved in me by calling the question a fallacy or not finding reason and means of making a thing act against itself.
    (On the other hand, I see a LOT of Christians being primarily motivated by fear of non-existence. If you’re not one that’s good.)

    Oh by the way! Meaninglessness of existence have I touched on that? I have no idea why this idea causes loss of self-worth for Christians (and thus forced in a panic that causes “meaning” to be created without justification.) Though, considering that they’d settle for no less than being god’s chosen species…

    The fact that there is no meaning other than what humans create is an interesting observation but it’s not like you don’t still have your mind or you disappear after you conclude it.
    I think that when a child asks questions like:
    “What are clouds for? Why do you exist?”
    the only right answer is to make them realize that the premise is what’s faulty. Kids probably draw it from growing up in a culture and thus being used to social rules set and artificial things being made for a purpose; but yet to learn that they can’t apply these “values” to nature, only things that have a human context. If humans were gone, any “meaning” or “goal” would be gone as it was in their head.

  26. Zem,
    Again, I appreciate your evident desire for rational, courteous discourse. That is a refreshing change from the abuse I often get from the YE creationists — I just replied yesterday to a creationist commenter on a different article on my blog who called me an “agent of Satan” ( ! ).
    That said, as I previously noted I don’t have a lot of interest in moral philosophy, not enough to pursue a lengthy, detailed dialog here. I have read a bit here and there, but do not have technical philosophical training, so I am not a worthy discussion/debate partner for you – you seem to have thought/read deeply on this subject, and probably have read up on the major thinkers. I have only limited time to devote to this, so I will respond to only a few of your points.

    ( A )
    Re definition of objective morality: I cited RationalWiki and your own comment on the subject, and have little more to add.

    ( B )
    You wrote: Normative/descriptive/meta-ethics are different approaches to the same end, not separate domains of knowledge. Normative ethics, as the name suggests, does this by identifying standards or “norms” by which ethical action may be evaluated….Normative ethics does not have the kind of “transcendental ethics” meaning that you seem to assign to them.

    Response: Your definition of “normative ethics” seems to fall within the conventional definition of “descriptive ethics”. Merely to identify standards by which ethical actions are evaluated [by you or others] is still “descriptive”. To be truly “normative” requires discovering that which is “actually right or wrong, which may be independent of the values or mores held by any particular peoples or cultures “. This seems to be what you are calling “transcendental”. See:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality#Descriptive_and_Normative
    “ In its descriptive sense, “morality” refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores. It does not connote objective claims of right or wrong, but only refers to that which is considered right or wrong. Descriptive ethics is the branch of philosophy which studies morality in this sense.
    In its normative sense, “morality” refers to whatever (if anything) is actually right or wrong, which may be independent of the values or mores held by any particular peoples or cultures. Normative ethics is the branch of philosophy which studies morality in this sense. [end quote]

    Thus, descriptive morality qualifies as ordinary knowledge, but it is widely denied that normative ethics (I am using the conventional definition, not yours) counts as “knowledge”, e.g.:

    “Moral anti-realism, on the other hand, holds that moral statements either fail or do not even attempt to report objective moral facts. Instead, they hold that moral sentences are either categorically false claims of objective moral facts (error theory); claims about subjective attitudes rather than objective facts (ethical subjectivism); or else not attempts to describe the world at all but rather something else, like an expression of an emotion or the issuance of a command” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality#Realism_and_anti-realism ]

    (So you can see that my contention that attempts from within naturalism to formulate moral standards rest ultimately on “expression of an emotion” is widely shared within secular philosophy. This contention is not dependent on theistic presuppositions, and in fact was evident to me before I became a Christian).

    ( C )
    The existence of “mind” and of “consciousness” are not at all axiomatic as you seem to think.
    See e.g. this definition: “Consciousness—The having of perceptions, thoughts, and feelings; awareness. The term is impossible to define except in terms that are unintelligible without a grasp of what consciousness means. Many fall into the trap of equating consciousness with self-consciousness—to be conscious it is only necessary to be aware of the external world. Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon: it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it has evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.” ,
    and,
    “While most people have a strong intuition for the existence of what they refer to as consciousness, skeptics argue that this intuition is false, either because the concept of consciousness is intrinsically incoherent, or because our intuitions about it are based in illusions.” [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness ]

    If you talk with practicing neuroscientists you will find that many if not most hold that all mental activity, including what we perceive as our moral decisions, is merely a deterministic result of prosaic physical electrochemical events in the brain, so there is no such thing as “mind” ; in a purely physical universe our so-called “consciousness” is just an illusory epiphenomenon.
    I am not arguing for or against a particular position here, just noting that many secular thinkers would take issue with your “axiom” here.

    ( D )
    You wrote:
    2. the evolutionary principle;
    That all action comes from a FUNDAMENTAL LACK OF CHOICE, where the only choice is between 1. annihilation and 2. survival (ie. life or death)
    Thus we derive an “ought” from an “is” because a position of “ought NOT to be” leads to the position eliminating itself, leaving only the “ought to be”. [end quote]

    This seems to be your key means of deriving an “ought”, but as stated it makes no sense.

    ( E )
    You wrote: “New atheists say etc.” I’m European. I feel little reason to follow whatever spokesperson you can get over there.

    My response: Sartre was also European, and (as I cited) he wrote “Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist.” I have read that conclusion from various other atheists, both American and European. I cited several atheist writers (Braterman, Malik, Rosenburg) whom I was immediately aware, who all seem to agree that there is no possibility within atheism to judge anything, whether genocide or an act of kindness, as factually, objectively right or wrong, good or evil. Braterman resides in Scotland, though since Brexit you may not consider that a part of Europe 🙂 .

     I am sure that if you looked around you would find many other atheist thinkers who agree. Again, I cited the (atheistic) RationalWiki noting that, “ arguably, no objective source of morality has ever been confirmed, nor have any a priori proofs been offered to the effect that morality is anything other than subjective.”

    So if you are striving to assess the viability of your proposed basis for morals apart from God, you would probably obtain a more satisfying critique from a cynical atheist like Rosenburg (who would share the vast majority of your presuppositions) than from a theistic, non-philosopher such as myself.

    I suggest you consider putting your viewpoint out there as a published paper in a philosophical journal, and see how well it survives the scrutiny of professional philosophers. I have skimmed Wikipedia articles on consciousness and on morality, and it is clear that there are many different schools of thought, so your viewpoint would be competing with a number of other proposals for a naturalistic basis for morality.

    e.g. from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality#Realism_and_anti-realism :

    Moral realism is the class of theories which hold that there are true moral statements that report objective moral facts. For example, while they might concede that forces of social conformity significantly shape individuals’ “moral” decisions, they deny that those cultural norms and customs define morally right behavior. This may be the philosophical view propounded by ethical naturalists, however not all moral realists accept that position (e.g. ethical non-naturalists).

    Moral anti-realism, on the other hand, holds that moral statements either fail or do not even attempt to report objective moral facts. Instead, they hold that moral sentences are either categorically false claims of objective moral facts (error theory); claims about subjective attitudes rather than objective facts (ethical subjectivism); or else not attempts to describe the world at all but rather something else, like an expression of an emotion or the issuance of a command (non-cognitivism). [end quote]

    I don’t expect to continue this dialog, for reasons described above, but I commend you for your efforts.

    • Zem says:

      I truly appreciate the time you had to give. 🙂
      I was the one who bothered you uninvited, so I already got more than I was fair to ask.
      (In my defense I did not actually expect to hit such a wall in understanding, I expected more of a “Why do you say this?” “Because…” “Oh, I see” type exchange.
      I assumed that you’d have the same passion for truth and interest (maybe even knowledge) in this case as for the others in your blog. I’m sorry I was trying to unload what I wanted on you.:) )

      It’s rare to find intelligent people and frankly I don’t enjoy having these sort of…not quite prejudices (because you learn them by watching), but bad experiences about how believers think and I’d like to be proven false, like someone actually explain to me WHY any believer would think that they can claim a sole ownership on morals, or how the supernatural even figures into this question.

      I feel like I failed to learn it this time too, but maybe I was asking the wrong questions and I completely understand that you shouldn’t be wasting your time on this. 🙂
      Again, I was asking for too much and I thank for the attention you gave.

      (I’ll respond to the few remaining points but I don’t make it your job to reply unless you want to, I just think I should correct a few things since they were brought up.-> )

      (B)
      You need to define what you mean by something before you talk about it, otherwise you and your partner will end up talking about two different things. My request for a clear definition for the purpose of discussion does not somehow make it “descriptive”; I’m asking about the category, not its content.

      I’m using the word “transcendental” because many definitions are unclear.

      “how we OUGHT to act”…”what is ACTUALLY right”…these definitions are meaningless and self-referental. What do you mean by ‘actually’? I’ll know it when I find it?

      However I searched around (in dictionaries and on the net) and many seems to agree with my definition of normative, ie. “normative: Of, relating to, or prescribing a NORM or STANDARD”.

      Gotquestions http://www.gotquestions.org/normative-ethics.html (which is HORRIBLE church propaganda so it’s not like I trust them actually) says
      “Normative ethics is the study of ethical frameworks. It’s the attempt to develop guidelines that do not list ethical actions but can judge if an action is ethical according to a given system.”

      Another source says:
      “Normative ethics is about what has overriding importance”
      and this definition I am willing to accept (since it at least defines the category in some way) but I wonder how widely ‘accepted’ it is.

      A clear understanding of what is being discussed is absolute neccessity to have a meaningful conversation, or we’ll talk about two different things!

      (C-1)
      I think you’re cheating here. :p You’re picking something from the middle of the article, when the first line (“Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of 1. an external object or 2. something within oneself.”) is quite clear and identical to how I defined the conscious.

      (Funny coincidence – I left a comment on that very article just some time before you brought it up, arguing for the removal of that paragraph on the basis that it’s needless obscurantism that does not add information to the article. I mean, “nobody knows what X means” is probably the laziest and most pointless thing one can say.)

      (C-2)
      That’s quite likely, but note that this (ie. consciousness being a secondary byproduct) only moves the place of decision-making to somewhere in the unconscious mind.
      Which is just how I see it: the conscious mind really just collects information about and updates a much bigger subconscious ones which is mostly automated. As it should because this is the more effective way to operate things, one step at a time; you don’t perform all the information collecting, analysis, decision etc. in a single moment every time you make a choice. It comes from knowledge you already chewed through.

      I understand the point, I don’t see it incompatible with what I said though.
      There’ll always be an “inside” and an “outside” view, even if we know how these connect, the “view” from both is conceptually different. Even if we know all about the external, we’d still never shake off the internal, for practical reasons if nothing else.

      (D)
      I think the difference (in less words) just lies in that I believe in an objective reality as a guiding force (and its laws are only true for this world, but then again, we DO live in this world), while you believe in a second reality.

      Personally I don’t think there’s justification; if you feel that this world is devoid is meaning so you create an entire new world which isn’t, just to satisfy a human need, I won’t do that.
      I just try to do this in a way that my knowledge of the external and my beliefs from the internal do not ruin each other.

      I kinda think that this world keeps one so busy: we have to make sure that we don’t hurt other people’s feelings (education), we have to try to not die (medicine) etc. – and yet we still have times for mental experimenting that isn’t directly fruitful, from poetry to pure mathematics – I don’t think you can add anything of value with a 2nd reality you can’t even interact with. If there
      Religion in practice only dealt with the needs of humans in the first place. It doesn’t even research the unknown properly – it would focus on more gods, not just the most human-like one, if it did.

      (D-2) Hume
      I read a lot of Hume as a result of this talk, and it seems to me that his core point was that what may be in an “ought-is” gap deserves more discussion, NOT that it was impossible.
      It is quite clear that we make such decisions every second of the day (I see a yogurt so I’ll eat it, a door is closed so I’ll take the other one etc. etc.) If you don’t base your decisions on facts, then what are you doing?
      But this Hume point extends just as much to:
      “God exist (is), ergo we should follow him (ought)”
      So your claim that Hume talked about naturalism, specifically, being an issue I think, is not true.

      But then I’m not very impressed by his suggestion in the first place, it sounds like philosophical nonsense even a toddler could solve in practice. Philosophy often struggles with idealized and oversimplified models, even though you need all the information possible to properly explain why things are the way things are.

      (eg. in my shoddy attempt to outline an ethical system above – you can’t just lift out the practical information on how humans are, how human minds are, how the world is, and not end up with a completely alien moral system. Which is why it’s so difficult to cut it short.)

      (E)
      Yes, but if you only said that “atheist’s don’t have objective morals (the way -I- define objective)” I would’ve agreed.

      What I objected to most were things you said that things like, any nonreligious system had to be founded on emotion, which is GLARINGLY false…

      If there’s just one thing I’d like you to take away from this would be dropping this claim about nonbelievers being instinct drive animals. Noone, not even the articles you linked claimed that other moral systems were non reason based ones.
      It’s really just a statement that provokes for no good reason.

      …What I also tried to prove was that religious knowledge can’t in any way be called objective (even if you assume a perfect authority, this does not make it avaliable to humans), and that objectivity is achieved through multiple viewpoints, testing and self-inspection. At least one of which (sympathy, ie. incorporating other views) is fundamental to moality as a nonbeliever would understand it.

      But frankly the bottom line is that it’s not IMPOSSIBLE to arbitarily choose any source as your ultimate moral basis. Atheists could do this, too. (People like me, intellectualists – who believe in the reliability of knowledge –
      or “sympathists”, who see morality as a compromise between all possible viewpoints – do in fact engage in something like this.)

      The atheist authors aren’t arguing for the imposibility of this in atheism. What they are saying I think is that’d they consider this practice to be on the same level as religious practice to be the same, ie. ultimately human-chosen.
      (Which I agree with, I just think that enough information and practical tests would always result in something close to my viewpoint. Hence why it is ‘objectively true’.)

      So your argument that their arguments disprove objectivity in atheism but not yours is a misqupte of what you say, I think.

      But whatever, I may be wrong. 🙂 (Again…I wasn’t exactly impressed by these sources. My own teachers at home were far more clear-headed.)

      (E-2)
      Honestly, IMHO you’re twisting the truth on this again. Picking ONE item from a list of items listed in the definition of M.A-R. to claim that it is the ONLY item? I mean c’mon, you’re better than that.

      However, atheism and naturalism are compatible with both moral realism and moral anti-realism. (Not my claim. Look into it if you don’t believe me.) So your equation of atheism and M.A-R is also wrong in the first place.

      If you have any interest still in these things I think this blog was a bit better than the other ones:
      https://ethicalrealism.wordpress.com
      I don’t agree with everything he say naturally, but it is by far the best informed source I saw on these topics (Wikipedia is such a mess I can barely believe). If you wanna read more on what say, moral realism/a-r say, and other things, I think it’s a good source.

      Again, thanks for hearing me out. 🙂

      (If you feel like responding to some of my claims still feel free to, I’ll read it.)

  27. Zem,

    I have given you a good bit of attention here and it is time to close this thread out. I was going to let you have the last word here, except you concluded with repeatedly accusing me of dishonesty. I thus feel bound on those points to remind you what I did and did not say, to point out that you did not read carefully what I actually wrote.

    PART I

    You wrote:
    (C-1)
    I think you’re cheating here. :p You’re picking something from the middle of the article, when the first line (“Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of 1. an external object or 2. something within oneself.”) is quite clear and identical to how I defined the conscious. [end quote]

    My response:
    It is simplest just to repeat the section of my comment that you are reacting to here, which was listed as section “ ( C ) “ in my original comment:

    ( C )
    The existence of “mind” and of “consciousness” are not at all axiomatic as you seem to think.
    See e.g. this definition: “Consciousness—The having of perceptions, thoughts, and feelings; awareness. The term is impossible to define except in terms that are unintelligible without a grasp of what consciousness means. Many fall into the trap of equating consciousness with self-consciousness—to be conscious it is only necessary to be aware of the external world. Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon: it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it has evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.” ,
    and,
    “While most people have a strong intuition for the existence of what they refer to as consciousness, skeptics argue that this intuition is false, either because the concept of consciousness is intrinsically incoherent, or because our intuitions about it are based in illusions.” [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness ]

    If you talk with practicing neuroscientists you will find that many if not most hold that all mental activity, including what we perceive as our moral decisions, is merely a deterministic result of prosaic physical electrochemical events in the brain, so there is no such thing as “mind” ; in a purely physical universe our so-called “consciousness” is just an illusory epiphenomenon.

    [end quote]

    Commentary : In stating your case for deriving binding moral principles (statements 1-4 of your “personal moral code”), you made statements about the existence and the functioning of mind and consciousness which you considered fundamental and axiomatic. You also seem to want to be thoroughly rigorous and rational, rising high above any subjective or unprovable opinions. In that spirit I was merely pointing out that many secular thinkers (note that I have never in this discussion, to my knowledge, invoked theistic advocates) would consider your approach here to be naïve “folk psychology”, e.g. when I cited: “While most people have a strong intuition for the existence of what they refer to as consciousness, skeptics argue that this intuition is false, either because the concept of consciousness is intrinsically incoherent, or because our intuitions about it are based in illusions.”

    In the Wikipedia article Philosophy of Mind are listed (depending on how you count them) at least 19 different schools of thought on how the mind interacts with the physical world. Some thinkers may assert that they understand consciousness, but others strongly demur, e.g. “Colin McGinn holds that human beings are cognitively closed in regards to their own minds. According to McGinn human minds lack the concept-forming procedures to fully grasp how mental properties such as consciousness arise from their causal basis.”

    So we have the philosophers calling from their armchairs that our native intuitions on mind and consciousness are questionable, and scientists reporting from their labs that our thoughts (including your reading right now) seem be to the result of deterministic electrochemical reactions in a highly complex, but purely physical, network of nerves – – thus free will and moral choice and responsibility are simply an illusion, part of the narrative our mind constantly generates to try to make sense of things. Presumably this narrative-generation had survival value for organizing our ancestors’ responses to various threats in the physical world, but it does not seem logically to lead to the exaltation of consciousness, self-realization, goal-directness, etc.

    As I said, I don’t pretend to understand this, and so I am not taking a position on any of these schools of thought. But if you are going to put your moral code out there for critical review by real philosophers (instead of us internet hillbillies), I don’t think they will let you get away with ignoring these issues with consciousness and (it would seem) simply assuming moral realism. I was just trying to offer you some friendly advice here.

    You made some attempt to engage these issues, writing:

    “…note that this (ie. consciousness being a secondary byproduct) only moves the place of decision-making to somewhere in the unconscious mind.
    Which is just how I see it: the conscious mind really just collects information about and updates a much bigger subconscious ones which is mostly automated. As it should because this is the more effective way to operate things, one step at a time; you don’t perform all the information collecting, analysis, decision etc. in a single moment every time you make a choice. It comes from knowledge you already chewed through. “

    Comment: I agree that relegating much mental processing to the subconscious is efficient; but it also opens the door wide to non-rational responses, which are what you are claiming you are able to avoid. Thus, it seems your philosophy needs a bit more work here.

    Finally, circling back to your claim that I was “cheating” by citing the passages I did from the Wikipedia article on Consciousness:

    ( i ) The passages I picked, which highlight the difficulties in understanding the nature and functioning consciousness, are representative of the views of many (I never claimed all) philosophers. If you are so sure that you have attained a superior understanding of human mind, by all means feel free to publish it and put to flight all those skeptics and mysterians.

    ( ii) It was not my purpose to include a definition of consciousness, but to simply note that a wide range of philosophers warn that our native intuitions may be mistaken. As it turns out, the text I cited did include a definition of consciousness written by Stuart Sutherland, i.e. “The having of perceptions, thoughts, and feelings; awareness.” This does not differ materially from the definition earlier in the article which you cited, i.e. “Consciousness is the state or quality of awareness, or, of being aware of 1. an external object or 2. something within oneself.” So you have no cause to claim that I dishonestly chose some rogue definition to fit my purpose.

    (iii) You seem most vexed about what Sutherland further wrote about defining consciousness, which was, “The term is impossible to define except in terms that are unintelligible without a grasp of what consciousness means. Many fall into the trap of equating consciousness with self-consciousness—to be conscious it is only necessary to be aware of the external world. Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon: it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it has evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written on it.”

    I agree with you that the final sentence is gratuitous, but the rest of this passage, describing the difficulties in understanding or even defining consciousness, is the fruit of Sutherland’s many decades of experimental work and reflection with both animal and human subjects. He was a globally recognized expert in animal learning and human perception and cognition, with several books and many refereed articles. And his observation on the inherent circularity of these definitions (“consciousness” ~ “awareness”) is widely shared : “ … many philosophers and scientists have been unhappy about the difficulty of producing a definition that does not involve circularity or fuzziness.” [from elsewhere in that Wikipedia article on Consciousness].

    PART II

    You wrote:
    “(E-2)
    Honestly, IMHO you’re twisting the truth on this again. Picking ONE item from a list of items listed in the definition of M.A-R. to claim that it is the ONLY item? I mean c’mon, you’re better than that. “

    Again, you did not read what I actually wrote. I cited the complete listing of positions (moral realism in its two main flavors, and moral antirealism [ “M. A.-R.”] ) that were given in that section of the Wikipedia article, and I wrote “there are many different schools of thought, so your viewpoint would be competing with a number of other proposals for a naturalistic basis for morality.”
    I did not say that atheists take only the M. A.-R. position. Obviously they take a range of these positions. But if you are going to take your stand on the side of some flavor of moral realism, you need to be prepared to defend your position against the arguments of the anti-realists and other skeptics, who will, I believe, be mainly atheists.

    For instance, you may recall that earlier in our discussion I noted that Sam Harris was arguing that moral values could be derived scientifically. This is largely similar to what you are claiming, though the specifics of your approach would differ from Harris’s. But it was the atheists Malik and Braterman who dismissed Harris’s claims of moral certitude. And the article by (atheist) Alex Rosenburg, which you commended, walks through many of the rationales for ethical realism and refutes them (to his satisfaction, at least).

    Just to add a note of clarification, I never meant to imply that atheistic moralizers were unthinking and driven purely by emotion. I made it clear that I acknowledged their efforts at moral reasoning. Regardless of the whether we can rigorously justify our moral judgements, obviously things work better if there is some sort of agreed-upon moral code, i.e. moral norms. But I have not seen a convincing case, including your moral code, that those norms do not derive at some point (which may be subtle) from unprovable, subjective opinions/assumptions, which at rock-bottom, are based on gut-feeling as to what is right or true. That is what I meant by “emotional preference.” Which is not foolish or dishonest, but does not seem logically to result in objective (as defined above), universally-binding moral standards.

    You seemed to take all this to mean that I was making some perjorative comparison between the subjectivity of believers and unbelievers, but that was never my point. A theist obviously starts off with an unprovable, subjective faith commitment; but then his embrace of objective, universally-binding moral standards then flows naturally from that.

    You are free to disagree. If it were as self-evident as you claim that universally binding moral truths can be discovered, within a universe composed of particles and radiation, by pure logic, with no subjective (i.e. based on personal opinions and feelings) input or assumptions whatsoever , it is surprising that that is not more widely known. But perhaps you have some fresh insights that will dispel all this contention in the world of moral philosophy.

    For reasons noted already, I am closing out this thread of comments. I wish you well.

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